Sound from the amp is running "late"

[ARandall]

^ Electricity is running at 300million m/s
Sound travels at 343m/s

10ft away would make the sound arrive at your ear .008 seconds (give or take) after you struck the note.
A typical human reaction time to an event is .25 of a second.....so thats the time taken at the very least for you to realise you've hit the note.

Even 50 metres away you would barely be able to tell any difference.....and if you were watching a band for example you would not be close enough to see precisely when the note was struck anyhow.

 

[picoman]

Yes the Artisan 15 has an EZ81 Tube Rectifier - https://www.blackstaramps.com/uk/ranges/artisan-series

Tube rectifier gives you sag.

Try an amp with solid state rectifier.

This could be it.
Ive been reading last few days on this topic more and more.
Expecialy since Ive been playing acoustic last 5 years, instant atack.
This sag effect with tube rectifiers could be the reason I "feel" sound "later".

 

[CB91710]

Before going into the rectifier sag discussion....

How loud are you playing? Bedroom/home levels, you are highly unlikely to encounter rectifier sag, and when you do, it is just a slight compression in attack and output... the attack isn't delayed, just softened.
The tube rectifier does not delay the sound in any way.

 

[picoman]

amp has 15w/5w option, and it start to break up very, very earlie (VOL dialed at 3/10)
Usualy amp is half way up.
Word "soft" is also a good description of the feeling I get while playing.
While amp is set "clean", wich is at vol. 1.5-2/10, this effect is not so drastic.
As soon as the drive kicks in, its very noticable (at least for me, playing acoustic for the last 5 years)

 

[Brek]

Yeah, the delay i measured from 10ft away didn't make sense to me either, but some guy mentioned it as a thing, so I chucked it into the mix. I have played a saggy amp in a sim program and it was weird, the effect i felt might be what the OP is getting. I've not played lots of acoustic so cannot really experience it as a delay compared to the much more immediate feedback of strumming an acoustic the OP is used to.

 

[Homestead]

Yes the Artisan 15 has an EZ81 Tube Rectifier - https://www.blackstaramps.com/uk/ranges/artisan-series

Tube rectifier gives you sag.

Try an amp with solid state rectifier.

I think you're onto something here. The "sag" is the recovery time between notes. Tube rectification is slower than solid state. I have no idea what the layout of the offending amp is but it's an easy thing to swap a tube rectifier for a few diodes.

 

[ErictheRed]

It could be that he's describing sag, but that typically only happens at very high volumes--or if there's a problem with the amp.

 

[vechap]

Try different amps... Not necessarily solid state rectifier.

 

[blouie]

Do you play through a noise gate pedal (or does the amp have noise gate built in)? If so, adjust threshold down to open the "gate" quicker.

 

[sultan_of_sound]

Yeah, the delay i measured from 10ft away didn't make sense to me either, but some guy mentioned it as a thing, so I chucked it into the mix. I have played a saggy amp in a sim program and it was weird, the effect i felt might be what the OP is getting. I've not played lots of acoustic so cannot really experience it as a delay compared to the much more immediate feedback of strumming an acoustic the OP is used to.

Actually, your offering about the delay experienced at 10 ft away is spot on. Those of us who have been jamming online with programs like JamKazam and Jamulus are keenly aware of this. The latency limit for playing guitar is in the 20-25ms range. After that, it becomes unworkable and annoying. It is much worse for drummers. Tempo inevitably droops as you play through a song even at 20 ms latency. 10ms of latency is definitely detectable for any intermediate to advanced musicians ear. Still playable, but perceptible.

 

[sultan_of_sound]

^ Electricity is running at 300million m/s
Sound travels at 343m/s

10ft away would make the sound arrive at your ear .008 seconds (give or take) after you struck the note.
A typical human reaction time to an event is .25 of a second.....so thats the time taken at the very least for you to realise you've hit the note.

Even 50 metres away you would barely be able to tell any difference.....and if you were watching a band for example you would not be close enough to see precisely when the note was struck anyhow.

Human reaction time of 250ms is not what comes into play here. 10ms of latency is definitely perceptible to the human ear, especially an intermediate to advanced musician. 20-25ms is about the limit to how much latency your ear can tolerate before it becomes unplayable. 10ms is definitely perceptible, but playable. Those of us who have been using online jamming software like JamKazam and Jamulus during the pandemic are keenly aware of these limitations.

 

[cybermgk]

It could be that he's describing sag, but that typically only happens at very high volumes--or if there's a problem with the amp.

Well, to be exact, it would be when the rectifier is saturated, correct? Yes, that will happen at high volumes, amp cranked. But, it can also not be depending on the amp design, MV location in circuit, power scaling etc, can't it?.

 

[sixstringer99]

Just in case the switches are not labeled, perhaps you are turning the standby switch on first and then the power switch. If the power goes on directly without the standby, then the tubes have to warm up. Just covering all bases.

 

[ErictheRed]

Well, to be exact, it would be when the rectifier is saturated, correct? Yes, that will happen at high volumes, amp cranked. But, it can also not be depending on the amp design, MV location in circuit, power scaling etc, can't it?.

It can happen with power scaling at lower volumes, sure, but much less so with a master volume. I suppose it's possible depending on the design.

 

[MrCrowley]

I’ve been playing tube amps, sims and acoustics all my life, never had this happen to me.

The only noticeable latency I’ve experienced was in recording studios, but always software/interface related issues.

I think you should try different amps and double check your signal - cables and pedals.
It really shouldn’t matter that you always played acoustic.

Could it be that the tubes are still heating up?
Do you turn it on a leave it for 5-10min before playing?

 

[sll]

It would almost certainly have to be due to a digital conversion device like a pedal or wireless unit. An analog delay line without a delay line bucket brigade chip or a huge roll of cable is highly improbable.

 

[Rigidarm]

I am in agreement that pick sound is annoying. Many great players use only their fingers. You’ll learn to “crab claw” and eliminate pick sounds. Watch Mark Knopfler. I play 90% of the time with fingers only.

 

[zdoggie]

might be something wrong with your amp!

zdog

 

[JohnnyN]

Sag in a tube rectified amp could become this bad at high volume with low rated or bad filter caps?

Nomral sag is more a feeling than anything else.

 

[picoman]

Can I replace my tube rectifier with an solid state to try and see the difference?