Scale Length and string tension - at what point can you feel it

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InTheEvening

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I played an Epiphone Les Paul for years and then got my first Fender, a 2011 American standard tele...def felt a noticeable difference. I put on 9’s and got a professional set up with the action set super low, the Fender still felt stiffer to play than my Epi.
 

Nobby Mc Nobsworth

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And all of the "balanced tension" sets I've seen go the wrong way, heavier gauge strings on the treble end and lighter on the bass side.
I prefer heavy bass.
They have to as the bass side of a regular set usually has more tension on it. Never understood entirely why, mind. Except that chuggier is obviously better. I started out balancing for three reasons- could never get a plain "g" to stay in tune, the high "e" is almost always the one that snaps and I thought maybe the wierd neck twist I always get might have been to do with the more bass tension (it wasn't). Now my fingers are just used to them.
 

Oranjeaap

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It's definitely all explicable by the laws of physics- just not entirely by simplified ones. I calculated a balanced tension set using simple math, then realised on consulting the tension chart that wound strings have different ratios of core to wrapping thickness, which threw the calculation into a cocked hat and left me with a set almost as unbalanced as regular 10s.. Less non-compliance with the laws of physics, more subtleties not accounted for by simple models :cool2:

Not sure what you're trying to say here to be honest (could be just me though)

And yes, the "simple" physics law for string wave frequency includes variables that explain why both the core and the wound part matter.
For string tension the windings aren't in the equation.
For bending they will be in the equation but it's gonna be a super complex calculation, i doubt anyone has ever gone trough the trouble because the impact of the winding on bending should be very minor.
 

KelvinS1965

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I had something similar with my Gibson 60s Tribute Gold Top and my Epiphone LP Standard. Except it was the other way round, the Epiphone felt easier to bend on. Same string gauge and brand (since I found Gibson brite wire 10s felt 'stiffer' than Ernie ball 10s for some reason), same neck relief and action height too.

I've since had the Epiphone re-fretted due to wear and the vintage frets replaced with medium ones, the GT has taller frets, but the same guy did a level on it to slightly reduce the height for me. I've got straight 10s on the Epiphone, but have gone up to 10 with 48 on the bottom E (the bottom 3 strings are like an 11 gauge set). They both feel quite similar with this set up since the refret and general set up of the Epiphone, which now plays very well. Just subtle differences in headstock angle, fret height and stop tail height I guess, but I can't seem to adjust it out, so just settled on the two different string sets.


I think I've gone up in gauge in recent years since I've been playing an Esquire with 10s on it and now have a Jaguar (24" scale) with 11s on it. I've just got used to the thicker gauges and find 9s too floppy for my taste on Strats or LPs. I did go to 9.5 on my Strat and Tele, but have found them slightly light, so have the ones with the 10 gauge on the lowest strings and 9.5 on the top.

Not a factor in the OP's case, but I've found adjusting the stop tail height makes a difference to feel, but my Epiphone studs are a bit delicate (it's 30 years old) so I think I'll end up top wrapping it and then I can deck the stop tail.
 

CB91710

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They have to as the bass side of a regular set usually has more tension on it. Never understood entirely why, mind. Except that chuggier is obviously better. I started out balancing for three reasons- could never get a plain "g" to stay in tune, the high "e" is almost always the one that snaps and I thought maybe the wierd neck twist I always get might have been to do with the more bass tension (it wasn't). Now my fingers are just used to them.
Ya, and with some of the alternate tunings, all bets are off on the best compromise for tension.
Personally, I've not broken a string in 20 years... and it hasn't been a frequent event since I stopped using 8's over 30 years ago.
 

Michael Matyas

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FWIW, I remeasured the scale lengths again.

LP: 12 9/32" center of 12th fret. Calculated scale x2 = 24 18/32 (24.563). Actual measure to center of (fixed) bridge at center = 24.72". Oddly, it intonates perfectly and the saddles aren't at the limits. They look "normally" distributed.

Epi: 12 3/8" center of 12th fret. Calculated scale x2 = 24.75. Actual measure to center of (adjustable Pigtail) bridge at center = 24 27/32 (24.85). This guitar is perfectly intonated but there is some significant variation in the saddles although nothing is at the extremes. I did move the bridge back a bit to get the saddles better distributed across it when intonated.

I used a ruler marked 32's for the measurement... so measurements are +/- 1/64"
Wow, Lester, it sounds like you've got your act together and measured everything down to the micron. I admit I was not familiar with the details of your Epiphone, not knowing that it has a one-piece combo bridge/tailpiece. Here is one more thought: the longer the length of string between the bridge and tailpiece, the softer the strings will play because the string behind the bridge will give a little bit. On my own Custom solidbodies I generally place the tailpiece twice as far from the bridge as it is on a Les Paul. This both softens the action and fattens the tone, and it ensures that the strings will not touch the body of the bridge. Since, on a one-piece combo bridge, there is no string length to speak of behind the saddles, there is no "give" like their is on a two-piece setup. So it seems that short of tuning down, the only way to improve the action is use lighter strings. BTW, this is not just some shit that I am making up. The information comes from Jimmy D'Aquisto, who was interviewed by Irving Sloane for his book, Steel String Guitar Construction. Jimmy used this knowledge to customize the action and tone of his archtop jazz guitars after they were built, in order to meet the buyer's preferences. The chapter on archtop construction clearly states that shortening the tailpiece (in effect, lengthening the string between the tailpiece and bridge) will soften the action. I hope this is helpful.
 

Lester

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He's an awesome musician and I'm sure a wonderful person... but he is also protective of what he may consider to be "proprietary" information.

Like EVH with his fake neck pickup... which by the time he added it, we already knew he wasn't using?
 

Lester

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Wow, Lester, it sounds like you've got your act together and measured everything down to the micron. I admit I was not familiar with the details of your Epiphone, not knowing that it has a one-piece combo bridge/tailpiece. Here is one more thought: the longer the length of string between the bridge and tailpiece, the softer the strings will play because the string behind the bridge will give a little bit. On my own Custom solidbodies I generally place the tailpiece twice as far from the bridge as it is on a Les Paul. This both softens the action and fattens the tone, and it ensures that the strings will not touch the body of the bridge. Since, on a one-piece combo bridge, there is no string length to speak of behind the saddles, there is no "give" like their is on a two-piece setup. So it seems that short of tuning down, the only way to improve the action is use lighter strings. BTW, this is not just some shit that I am making up. The information comes from Jimmy D'Aquisto, who was interviewed by Irving Sloane for his book, Steel String Guitar Construction. Jimmy used this knowledge to customize the action and tone of his archtop jazz guitars after they were built, in order to meet the buyer's preferences. The chapter on archtop construction clearly states that shortening the tailpiece (in effect, lengthening the string between the tailpiece and bridge) will soften the action. I hope this is helpful.

I can measure, but I don't necessarily know what to do with the measurements.

Thanks... seems I'll just head this one to 9's. I changed the locking posts on the Epi yesterday, which got me a better (or less mobile) bridge angle (doing another post on that) and lower action. That helped a bit more but it's still not as graceful as the vintage LP.
 

CB91710

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Like EVH with his fake neck pickup... which by the time he added it, we already knew he wasn't using?
A number of amps were damaged by variacs being pushed to 130+
Whether it was deceit on Eddie's part, misunderstanding of what was said, or unclear communication, we'll never know.
I believe the intent was to tell people to set the amp to the 130v setting and drop the voltage with the variac... but I've not read the actual statement.
 

Nobby Mc Nobsworth

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..the "simple" physics law for string wave frequency includes variables that explain why both the core and the wound part matter.
yes, compacted into "m", the string mass in the simple equation.
For string tension the windings aren't in equation
See above. They're hidden in the mass term in said equation.
For bending they will be in the equation but it's gonna be a super complex calculation, i doubt anyone has ever gone trough the trouble because the impact of the winding on bending should be very minor.
Pretty much. It's the core that stretches, the windings just separate very, very slightly over it. But not a super complicated set of equations.. as the core stretches lengthwise it also reduces a bit in diameter, an equation containing Poisson's ratio for the steel tells you by how much. Pythagoras' theorem would tell you the new length of the string between nut and bridge due to the bend, from which you could calculate the extra portion of the mass which is now between nut and bridge, then there'd be a third equation for factoring in the increase in tension due to the side-loading causing the bend- once you have those three independent variables updated you can rearrange the initial simple equation to get the new frequency (dependent variable) due to the bend.

I'm sure you're right about the hassle of even that set of calculations though- when they compile tension charts they probably just put the string a on a load cell, apply tension until they get the frequency they're after, rinse and repeat a few times with the same gauge string, take an average and write it down. It's a lot quicker and more accurate that trying to calculate it from first principles thanks to stuff like this:
Music wire is made by drawing wire through progressively smaller dies until the proper diameter or gauge is attained. Dies are very hard metal, but they do wear after miles and miles of wire have been pulled through them. Strings made from older dies will have a slightly greater diameter, and therefore more tension than strings made from brand new dies
 
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Nobby Mc Nobsworth

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A number of amps were damaged by variacs being pushed to 130+
Whether it was deceit on Eddie's part, misunderstanding of what was said, or unclear communication, we'll never know.
I believe the intent was to tell people to set the amp to the 130v setting and drop the voltage with the variac... but I've not read the actual statement.
I can see the idea behind this- feeding less voltage/current into a tube amp than it's expecting gives you nice sag and reduces headroom, but feeding more than it's expecting (ignoring the fuse) causes red-plating, sometimes cool electrical fire effects between electrodes if your tubes are a little gassy, and then burns out all your filaments. Provided it doesn't destroy every other component on the B+ rail first, of course. Nasty business..
 

Nintari

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The difference between my Strat and a shorter-scaled guitar is definitely night and day. Everything is easier on a shorter scale for me. Well, maybe not everything. The spacing of a standard scale is more roomy, which I enjoy.
 

CB91710

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I can see the idea behind this- feeding less voltage/current into a tube amp than it's expecting gives you nice sag and reduces headroom, but feeding more than it's expecting (ignoring the fuse) causes red-plating, sometimes cool electrical fire effects between electrodes if your tubes are a little gassy, and then burns out all your filaments. Provided it doesn't destroy every other component on the B+ rail first, of course. Nasty business..
Exactly.
And one "trick" that I heard was to simply set the amp to 130 without the variac, as that would lower the PT output by 8% give or take.
There's really no need to use both methods since the variac can go well below an operable voltage with the amp set to 110/120.
 

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