Yet Another 50s Wiring Question?

[GitFiddle]

I got myself a 2016 Trad T back in January and love it. The honeymoon is over and it's about time to start making some mods. In the past I have just replaced stock wiring with a new Jonesy's 50s harness. This time I want to try just changing the stock wiring from modern to 50s first. This came stock with 500K pots.

I'm sure most everyone is familiar with the two diagrams below.

I've always heard that switching from Modern to 50s was as simple as moving the tone cap leg from the outer volume pot leg(red) to the center volume pot leg(yellow).

Although, in these two diagrams the cap leg connection on the tone pot changes also, from inner leg to an outer leg.

My question is, do I need to make the same changes on the tone pot as the diagram? If so, is it OK to desolder and bend the leg soldered to the casing? I was worried it might just snap off if I bent it back into place. Are they good for at least two bends?

Thanks for any insight on the matter.

 

[chupe442]

Yes, you should be fine on the bends.. Get in there and start wiring!

 

[DavidRamey]

You don't need to make the change on the tone pot. You do need to change the cap from the outer leg to the inner leg on the volume pot.

 

[Mark V Guitars]

You don't need to make the change on the tone pot. You do need to change the cap from the outer leg to the inner leg on the volume pot.

What's the sound difference David, if you don't also change the cap position on the tone pots? How do the tone controls react versus also changing them to the outer position?

 

[ReWind James]

You don't need to make the change on the tone pot. You do need to change the cap from the outer leg to the inner leg on the volume pot.

Changing whether the tone circuit (pot AND cap) is connected to the input (pickup) side or the output (switch) side of the volume pots is what makes the difference in volume/tone control interaction.

How the tone cap and pot are connected to each other is negligible. In the case of a harness being already wired and the tone pot lug already soldered to the pot case, I'd just leave it alone and move the volume-pot-side lead of the cap to the other volume pot lug and call it a day. You'll still get the retention of treble when you roll back the volume, assuming that's what you are after.

 

[Mark V Guitars]

But what is the tonal difference when a/b'ing side by side?

 

[ReWind James]

Do you mean between swapping the tone pot lugs or not moving the tone pot lugs, while still having the tone circuit connected to the volume pot 50's style in both cases?

I've heard some say they hear some extremely minor difference but couldn't even describe what it was. I've not heard it. I've heard the engineers say "but the electrons flow..." but I've never known anyone to actually do a back-to-back blind A/B test of recordings with the same instrument/everything, so anything short of that is just speculation. It reminds me of the same discussion regarding which side of the cap should face the volume pot. It may matter in some circuits, but I've heard both and I personally couldn't tell which is which when listening for a difference. YMMV.

On the other hand, moving that entire tone circuit to the output lug on the volume pot makes a very noticeable difference that nobody seems to be able to disagree with. I'm satisfied with that.

 

[Mookakian]

There is no tonal difference by changing how the tone pot grounds, you are getting the exact same effect either way. The entire tonal change with 50's and modern is all about having resistance in series with your signal or not at the volume pot, before the capacitor.

Niether the sweep or the tone is modified by grounding the center lug as opposed to the outer lug of the tone pot. Its purely a history thing.

 

[kevinpaul]

I don't bend the middle lug of the tone pots. I just use a piece of wire to do that ground. Two reasons for that, I don't want solder to get into that opening. The second is I may change it one day. The 50s wiring is much brighter than the way it came, I changed to 300k tone pots. I also dumbed the wires and all the Gibson stock wires. I use 18AWG wires in three different colors from the jack to the switch. I have no choice but to use the pick up wire. My Standard is with out coil split and no push pull pots. My Studio has the push pull pots and coil split. I really don't care for it or out of phase. I seem to turn the wrong thing on at a bad time. I have 50s wiring that is as simple as it was 50 years ago.

 

[kevinpaul]

But what is the tonal difference when a/b'ing side by side?

Hi Mark, the 50s wiring is real bright vs the modern more plain and dull. Modern wiring the volume arrives first and the 50s the tone arrives first.

 

[Mark V Guitars]

Hi Mark, the 50s wiring is real bright vs the modern more plain and dull. Modern wiring the volume arrives first and the 50s the tone arrives first.

Hi Kevin. I'm aware of the difference between full modern wiring vs the 50's wiring. It's just that I didn't know if there was a difference between using one lug or the other on the tone pot side of things.

It seems like it would affect the sweep when rolling to tone down. But maybe not.

There is no tonal difference by changing how the tone pot grounds, you are getting the exact same effect either way. The entire tonal change with 50's and modern is all about having resistance in series with your signal or not at the volume pot, before the capacitor.

Niether the sweep or the tone is modified by grounding the center lug as opposed to the outer lug of the tone pot. Its purely a history thing.

Thanks for the info. I am curious though. I will try this down the road just to appease my curiosity.

 

[DavidRamey]

What's the sound difference David, if you don't also change the cap position on the tone pots? How do the tone controls react versus also changing them to the outer position?

I have tried the wiring of the cap on the tone pots both ways and I can't hear any difference. The tone control works the same with either wring choice.

 

[GitFiddle]

Thanks for the info James. I am going to just change the volume pots and leave the tone pots as they are. I will report back to see how it goes. I have never really noticed much of a difference between modern and 50s when playing at home volumes. The difference is like day and night though, when I play a gig at stage volumes.

I think I have put Jonesy 50s harnesses in at least five LPs so far. For me, they are essential if you ride the volume and tone at stage volumes.

I have been jamming on this Trad for about 6 months now. Love this guitar. I want to transition everything from chrome to nickel. Instead of changing the Classic 57s pickup covers to nickel, I bought a set of Electric City 59s with raw nickel covers. Going to also replace the chrome Nashville bridge with a Philly Luthier's nickel ABR and the stop TP with a Kluson nickel TP with steel studs.

Oh yeah, I got some historic PU rings too.

Still stock...

Will update after I make the mods.

 

[Mark V Guitars]

I have tried the wiring of the cap on the tone pots both ways and I can't hear any difference. The tone control works the same with either wring choice.

Like.

 

[dmoss74]

It seems like it would affect the sweep when rolling to tone down. But maybe not.

you're question has already been answered. i'm just curious as to why you would assume that?

 

[kevinpaul]

Mark the only difference I hear is when the cap legs go from the bottom tone lug to the middle volume pot lug is too bright. I took out the 500k pots. I installed old Gibson stamped 300k and that really helped. With the 500k the treble wanted to cut my head off. Yes it still gets bright, but there is controll over it.

 

[kevinpaul]

Hi Kevin. I'm aware of the difference between full modern wiring vs the 50's wiring. It's just that I didn't know if there was a difference between using one lug or the other on the tone pot side of things.

It seems like it would affect the sweep when rolling to tone down. But maybe not.





Thanks for the info. I am curious though. I will try this down the road just to appease my curiosity.

Mark every one says you lose tone rolling back the volume, that's what they say.
With the 50s you don't. That's what they say. My ears just aren't that good so I go with them till I know better.

 

[Mark V Guitars]

you're question has already been answered. i'm just curious as to why you would assume that?

Don't take it personally man. It's ok.

 

[Mark V Guitars]

Mark every one says you lose tone rolling back the volume, that's what they say.
With the 50s you don't. That's what they say. My ears just aren't that good so I go with them till I know better.

I use 50's wiring in both my LP's and there is a difference Kevin. You keep more of the highs. Everything sounds more open.

 

[ReWind James]

You'll notice much more of a difference when all your knobs are not on 10.

"Everything on 7 in the middle" should sound significantly different with 50's.

The taper would only change if you had a non-linear tone pot and moved the tone cap to the opposite outside lug (keeping center grounded). ...which would also make the tone knob operate backwards. Resistance between wiper and lug1 will be the same, at all rotation points, as resistance between lug1 and wiper, for instance.

FWIW - the 50's Centralab pots had two cleaning vents, one on each side of the pot back casing. Any lug could be pushed into the casing for grounding without bending or blocking vents. I get why CTS doesn't do that now. Either way, definitely don't block the vents and don't get any solder, flux or splatter in there either. A little masking tape, if you're not confident here, could save a pot.