A word on guitar capacitors

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TWANG

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Anyone ever read what Terry Downs @ TDPRI wrote about caps? Here's a post from him...
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I always dread getting into this, but here goes.

The capacitor thing IS A MYTH. I could write a book on it, but I'll only summarize here.

1. Capacitor Doesn’t Contribute Much - Probably most significant misunderstanding about the tone network is that the capacitor is not a significant part of the circuit until you are near the most counterclockwise (CCW) range of the pot. Here's why. A resonance occurs between the inductance of the pickup and the capacitance of the pickup/cable/amp. It generally occurs in the treble region, especially on Teles with single coils. Check the plot below.

I believe I did this PSPICE simulation with a Tele bridge pickup, 500K pots, 10ft cable, and a Fender Twin input impedance. This family of curves is the frequency response of the guitar at the various 10 dial positions of the tone pot. Notice each curve has the dial position/resistance of the audio taper tone pot. Notice the resonance hump at the high dial positions is at about 3.4kHz. That's the Tele treble most of us love. With the tone pot at max, the resistance of the pot is 442kohms (this comes from actual test data I took on a 500K Alpha pot), well within the 20% tolerance. The reactance of a 0.05µF capacitor at above a few hundred Hertz is practically zero. It is only a few kohms down at 100Hz. So, the capacitor is just a low impedance coupling cap to a variable resistor. As you turn the pot down, the load that the pickup sees is a lower resistance. This damps out the resonance. The resistive load of the tone pot as it is turned down is a RESONANCE KILLER. Notice it doesn’t shift the resonance frequency. Guess what, it takes capacitance to do that!!
As the tone pot approaches max CCW, the tone network is now purely capacitive and the resonance is back, but now at 300Hz (dial at zero).

If you use the tone pot at max CCW, then the capacitor makes a big difference. It decides where that low frequency resonance occurs. If you only turn down the tone pot slightly to lets say to remove the "icepick", then the pot is what's accomplishing that for you.

Prove it to yourself. If you slightly roll off highs with a tone pot, open your control cavity and use a clip lead and SHORT OUT YOUR TONE CAP. You won't be able to hear much difference in the tone pot's operation until it is turned down fairly low. At max CCW of course the signal is shunted to ground and nothing comes out.

2. Capacitor Types - As mentioned earlier with the twinkie analogy, the amplitude and frequency range of a guitar signal poses no challenge for any capacitor (except for a polarized cap). One of the reasons why ceramics get a bad rap is because many of the Fenders come with a the 503Z.

This a 0.05µF ceramic that has a tolerance of -20% to +80%. The actual capacitance of this part could be as high as 0.09µF !!! They are used because they are cheap. If you like using your tone control near max CCW, and you change that cap out with a tighter tolerance 0.05µF, you will hear a difference. It's only the capacitance value that matters, and that only matters in the lower fourth of the tone pot's range.

3. Psychoacoustic effects - Anyone that cares about what something sounds like will be a tinkerer. I have chased my tail on many things. It is easy to convince your mind that a changed part will affect the sound of something. It is only natural and normal. I'd venture to say that some of the folks that think they can hear the difference in a particular capacitor type (capacitance value being the same) are of a breed of folks that are sensitive to various changes in the acoustic environment and have better senses than I do. I've never understood how anyone could have perfect pitch, but they exist. So, I have no disrespect to any audiophile. I'm just stating the engineering facts.

4. Amplifer Impedance - This isn't mentioned much, but the amplifier input impedance is just like having another tone pot in parallel, although it has no series capacitor. That input impedance is also a resonance KILLER. Also the capacitance of the amp input and cable will shift the resonance. Oh yes, if there is a capacitor on the input of an amplifier, why isn't it paper in oil too?!?!?!?!?

5. Looks Good Under the Hood - If you like the looks of a $60 cap for your vintage vibe, then go for it.

Capacitor Upgrades - Myth? - Telecaster Guitar Forum
 

brianugly

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Very interesting. What is your take on it twang?
 

sasquatch

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If it ain't broken then it ain't gotta be fixed!
 

mrpesca

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May not make a difference in a single coil Telecaster but I swear there is a difference in a Les Paul. Jonsey may have something to say about this.
 

TWANG

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You know, I do amps and guitars.


When I first started modding amps I took special interest in the Mallory/Sprague/Sozo
choices.
One problem is.. caps in amps have to be broken in.. just like the whole circuit will sound better if you just leave a new amp on for hours, the caps will sound spikey and even harsh at first. Broken in, you do notice a difference.

Even when you play a modded vj for twenty minutes, if you pay attention you notice it's just.. better!

You'd feel differently after several hundred volts too, I bet.


Sozo capacitors take 100 hours to burn in!

But with guitars. there's not enough voltage in there to burn anything, so they are pretty much going to sound the same no matter how long you play.

I tried mallory caps in guitars.. and I chose spragues in the end.
I jokingly say, I just like orange! But I really did feel the mallorys were warmer, and the
spragues were quicker.. more responsive to attack.
I never tried Sozos in there as they are all 600V caps.. too high, 35v would do easily!, and then there's that admonition from the manu about burn in time.

I tried some OIP caps.. and I swear, I thought I heard a better voice!
It 'seemed' to me the caps gave as quick a response to attack, yet were more..
organnic in that response. It seemed a fuller, richer sound.. but only incrementally.

Was I just wishing?

As a friend of mine pointed out. the only way to know if that's just a myth in my head, an expectation, a hope or a dream.. is to hook two caps up to a push pull
and A/B them live in real time.
there'd be no mistaking then.

Until I have time to do that, I'm going to say this.
I believe there's a difference. I believe it's a small difference.
I believe small differences can be big ones to 'YOU'.

some OIP caps are 20.00.
I do not believe that they are 18.00 better than 2.00 Spragues.
I use Spragues, except in my lp where I used Mallorys, cause the are yellow.

I'd be happy with either of those, for the money, and I feel absolutley sure that 99% of people listening couldn't tell me what kind of caps I have in there.

I also want to say, I believe MOJO (not the company, *but a tip of the hat to Jonesy!*,
but the traditional voodoo/magic defined word), is important and valid.
Take all the smiles you can get. If a placebo makes you feel better, eat that sugar pill and smile smile smile.
We ALL have our mojo.. sure we try, esp. in here, to be all exact and perfect. But who is?
Who has, truly, the best guitar?
So 'best' he can hand it to anyone else and they'd agree?
And what in the end would make it 'best'?

surely the color would count! The shape, the weight, the balance, .... and how can any of those things be 'best'?

Maybe even the wear and tear!

So.. I recommend Spragues.. Mallorys.. and if you want a little MOJO.. go for it.
It aint gonna hurt!
Just don't brag it up too much. Try to make your point satisfaction and not
superiority, and you'll spread your smile..
What could be better for a musician to do?

TWANG
 

Atomic

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dude if you really want to freak everyone out, tell them what happens when you take that same bypass lead and coil it tightly around a ferrite. :hmm: :D
 

TeleDog

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It may not make much of a difference from the physics point of view, but hey, it's the mojo, it's there, nobody can deny that!
 

b-squared

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Next thing you know that same dude will start saying that the pickguard doesn't contribute to tone...pfffft. What the heck doe HE know?

:D

BB
 

chasenblues

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But will they help me get the "Slash Tone"....:jam::rofl::slash:
 

leftyguitarman

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I can't tell a difference between the $2 orange capacitors (whatever they may be) that I got from my local guitar repair store and the PIO Vitamin Q I got from TWANG. (I'm not saying TWANG didn't sell me a good product). I just can't hear a difference. And when I had ceramic caps in my Strat and put the orange ones in, I did notice a slight, and I mean slight difference. I didn't notice a difference when I put the PIO ones in. I think the whole hype about caps is just that... hype.
 

TWANG

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Lefty. that's what I mean.. is me me or is it memorex?
Only an A/B test would really tell.. and I was just thinking last night..

what if I hooked up two 500 push pulls to a box.
alligator clips coming out so you could remove control plate.. clip them directly to the pup lead and ground.
bypassing your guitars controls.. then run a cable out of the box, to an amp.

push in.. tone cap is sprague..
pull out.. tone cape is OIP..

I was thinking about doing this, and then sending it around.. each person who got it would promise to send it to the next person.. and everyone who wanted to could try the caps out and compare.
the last guy would send it back to me.

but who the heck would even be willing to pay the postage!
so.. I guess that tells you something about how much interest or concern there really is on this.
I might do it just for myself.
And if I ever get around to figuring out how to do clips..
TWANG
 

AngryHatter

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jonesy had "Explorer" kits so you can swap caps with ease - to test them out.
Maybe you should give it a try?
 

opt1c8n

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I am a skeptic and I don't believe in hype, but in my experience caps definitely make a difference. Not necessarily in tone or eq, but in feel and texture.. something that you really describe or capture in a recording. Whether it is an improvement or not is for you to decide.. but the difference is definitely not in your head.
 

5F6-A

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caps matter... you might not hear it but others can. Mind you, if you can't hear the difference you won't be tweaking the knob much anyaway....
 

TWANG

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I don't think I have any problem with hearing. And given the amount of guitars I own as well as those I've built I think I could tell if there was dramatic difference.
I still think there is difference, but how much, and how much it's worth..
up to each.
TWANG
 

Christmas

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caps matter... you might not hear it but others can. Mind you, if you can't hear the difference you won't be tweaking the knob much anyaway....

You're confusing the tone knob (a resistor) with the cap (a cap). Get it straight.
 

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