Gender norming

[diceman]

Visualizing the problem requires the ability to step back and look at the long term picture. The point is to get things to where we are all truly equal. A white male getting edged out of a job by a minority is a small price to pay compared to a black or a gay being hanged or beaten to death, which is what we're transitioning away from. If we WERE all treated equally and had equal opportunities, these rules wouldn't even exist, because there WOULD be equal representation of sexes/races/orientations in most every job.

That still doesn't make it right.

Best person for the job - regardless of personal traits. "Reverse discrimination," regardless of how it compares to past injustices, is still discrimination - and the price paid by the individual is still real. If my family can't make ends meet because of discrimination, but it isn't as bad as being hanged, that doesn't make it OK.

 

[huffdaddy]

Visualizing the problem requires the ability to step back and look at the long term picture. The point is to get things to where we are all truly equal. A white male getting edged out of a job by a minority is a small price to pay compared to a black or a gay being hanged or beaten to death, which is what we're transitioning away from. If we WERE all treated equally and had equal opportunities, these rules wouldn't even exist, because there WOULD be equal representation of sexes/races/orientations in most every job.

Ah, yes. But if employment hiring standards were set for a reason, and things are TRUELY equal, as you say, how many women do you think would/should be working in certain jobs ?

 

[Lyrica]

thank you all. we mostly agree about gender or race "norms" but you all show an attitude that even today i do not see when i apply for a job. i get refused work i am experienced and good at, simply because i am trans. and from what i can see from everyone who has posted in this thread, none of you would allow that to be the deciding factor, or even a factor in hiring someone. you are all decent and enlightened people. you give me hope.

 

[River]

That still doesn't make it right.

Best person for the job - regardless of personal traits. "Reverse discrimination," regardless of how it compares to past injustices, is still discrimination - and the price paid by the individual is still real. If my family can't make ends meet because of discrimination, but it isn't as bad as being hanged, that doesn't make it OK.

I agree, however what I said about my lack of faith in the average employer to be fair - either way - applies. Stupid laws are stupid, and I think most of us know stupid when we see it. We will be in a constant tug of war on that front for the foreseeable future. Some day everyone on the planet will have brown skin and eyes, and that'll take away one source of discrimination - leaving only a million others.

 

[Phil47uk]

Not long ago my sons girfriend was working in a garden center and struggling with a large bag of compost. A guy who had been hired thought he'd flex his muscles and started emptying the palette of bags one by one, putting one on each shoulder and carrying them in to the main store. After about 15 mins he'd finished and came out to where Anastasia was arranging the bags on another palette.. " Gonna take them in yourself love? " he said sniggering, "Blimey, we'll be here all night ". Anna then jumps into a forklift.. Picks up the whole palette and drives it into the store and she's back out in under a minute.
"Think you're clever then do you love?", he said.
No replies Anna. "It's simply why I'm the supervisor and you're not". ....

 

[diceman]

thank you all. we mostly agree about gender or race "norms" but you all show an attitude that even today i do not see when i apply for a job. i get refused work i am experienced and good at, simply because i am trans. and from what i can see from everyone who has posted in this thread, none of you would allow that to be the deciding factor, or even a factor in hiring someone. you are all decent and enlightened people. you give me hope.

Exactly. I don't believe in the "good old boys" system. I believe in true, pure equality - and in the best person for the job, based on the requirements of the job. The big strong dumb guy doesn't need to be a banker, because his "strengths" don't match the job...

 

[Jason]

That still doesn't make it right.

Best person for the job - regardless of personal traits. "Reverse discrimination," regardless of how it compares to past injustices, is still discrimination - and the price paid by the individual is still real. If my family can't make ends meet because of discrimination, but it isn't as bad as being hanged, that doesn't make it OK.

Absolutely, but we're not at the point where that will work. "Minorities" do not, at this stage, have the OPPORTUNITY to be as qualified as the affluent (and, say some around here, oppressed) white male. These are the people who have faced REAL "discrimination". If a member of the affluent cannot get a job, it's NOT because he's being "discriminated" against, it's because he's terrible at what he does. Where are the hard-working, competent, sober white males who absolutely cannot find a job? The premise of the affluent being discriminated against is absolutely ridiculous.

You're missing the point, again. We're in a transitional phase right now, trying to help certain groups get caught up. Groups who never had a snowball's chance in hell. If they did, this strategy wouldn't even be possible because, like I stated earlier, we'd already see a greater mix of people.

 

[geochem1st]

..... Some day everyone on the planet will have brown skin and eyes, and that'll take away one source of discrimination - leaving only a million others.

I remember reading somewhere that the 'average human being on planet earth' was an asian female. There is something to think about.

 

[Hamtone]

I remember reading somewhere that the 'average human being on planet earth' was an asian female. There is something to think about.

Thats because 1/3 of the pop is Asian

 

[Jason]

thank you all. we mostly agree about gender or race "norms" but you all show an attitude that even today i do not see when i apply for a job. i get refused work i am experienced and good at, simply because i am trans. and from what i can see from everyone who has posted in this thread, none of you would allow that to be the deciding factor, or even a factor in hiring someone. you are all decent and enlightened people. you give me hope.

I would love to believe that, Nicole, but I don't think many people on here are as "enlightened" or "tolerant" as they'd have you believe. There's anonymity and kind of a "buffer" between people on the internet and that really makes it easy for someone to just say "Yeah, I'm cool with you.", when they'd really hate that person face to face. Some people just make the peace on here so they don't get booted off.

 

[BEDLAM_1]

a womens work is never done!!!

thats why they gat paid less! ;-)

 

[geochem1st]

....If I own a company and I want all Chinese, tranny, alien, morphadites, to assemble bowling ball polish, it should be my right as a free enterprise not taking federal funds. ...

And here lies the start of discrimination. Not saying you personally, but this philosophy is easily abused. This is how groups get to be locked out. The opportunity is no longer equal. You are singling out the 'types' you want. If practiced by a group, large segments of the population lose opportunity.

The same thinking could also be applied to home sales or rentals. You should be able to sell your home to whomever you choose, or rent to whomever you choose, after all it is your home correct? No.

 

[huffdaddy]

You're missing the point, again. We're in a transitional phase right now, trying to help certain groups get caught up. Groups who never had a snowball's chance in hell. If they did, this strategy wouldn't even be possible because, like I stated earlier, we'd already see a greater mix of people.

And you're missing my point. This is also one of the reasons that I was hesitant to post my earlier posts in this thread. I'm going to be the big, sexist ogre !

I find that most of the people who believe in this "perfect world" scenario, are outsiders of the professions in question. Is it also acceptable, when 'helping certain groups get caught up", that standards are lowered, and the personal safety of the rest of the workforce is put in jeopardy ?

 

[Hamtone]

The thing is it is choice. Its kind of mafia really./ No you cant hire tito the painter you have to hire ahmed the painter.


I agree fully with huff, when it comes to saving lives and protecting others you usually dont have a union steward covering your ass till after you fuck up

 

[BEDLAM_1]

have you guys not worked this out>

women is currency! get good job get good women
get bad job , shag a hog!,,

women are there to tell you what you didnt do!
if a women makes more than you , you are a looser! in her eyes!
if you make more than her, you are a selfish tw"t.. no win

if you buy her things, you are a tw"t that only wants fanny!
if you dont buy her things you are the same! so save your cash for an LP and stay in !
its safer!

 

[BEDLAM_1]

if my missis sees this im dead! LOL

 

[Jason]

I find that most of the people who believe in this "perfect world" scenario, are outsiders of the professions in question. Is it also acceptable, when 'helping certain groups get caught up", that standards are lowered, and the personal safety of the rest of the workforce is put in jeopardy ?

Do you really and truly believe that to be the case? Give me some examples of this happening.

As far as the "perfect world" crack, if it weren't for people with imagination, we'd all still be naked and banging rocks together. No wheel, no sliced bread, no guitars. So do you have some other idea to "even things up" for those in society who have traditionally been oppressed? I'd really like to hear it.

 

[KP]

If you want your company or organization to thrive, you will take the best qualified person for the job. I could not give a shit less what sex, sexual orientation, race, or creed a person is as long as they can perform the job better than all other applicants. In my case I was immanently qualified and did not find out until 2 years later from a member of the promotion panel that the job should have been awarded to me. And... it was not the first time either.

 

[huffdaddy]

Do you really and truly believe that to be the case? Give me some examples of this happening.

As far as the "perfect world" crack, if it weren't for people with imagination, we'd all still be naked and banging rocks together. No wheel, no sliced bread, no guitars. So do you have some other idea to "even things up" for those in society who have traditionally been oppressed? I'd really like to hear it.

Yes, I really and truly believe that to be the case. Did you read my original post in this thread ? I've been on this forum for quite a while, and hardly ever participate in these polarizing type threads. But this is something I see all the time. I can cite many examples from over the years.

The "perfect world" thing wasn't really meant to be a crack. I'm all for people with imagination, but sometimes it takes more than imagination to get the task done. And I don't always have a forklift at my disposal as in Phil's anecdote.

Also, no, I don't have an idea to "even things up" for the oppressed of society. My point is, there are some jobs that we just can't "even up" so that it looks good from the outside and everyone's happy.

You also realize that these are all things that I can't say out loud in public ?

 

[Jason]

Yes, I really and truly believe that to be the case. Did you read my original post in this thread ? I've been on this forum for quite a while, and hardly ever participate in these polarizing type threads. But this is something I see all the time. I can cite many examples from over the years.

The "perfect world" thing wasn't really meant to be a crack. I'm all for people with imagination, but sometimes it takes more than imagination to get the task done. And I don't always have a forklift at my disposal as in Phil's anecdote.

Also, no, I don't have an idea to "even things up" for the oppressed of society. My point is, there are some jobs that we just can't "even up" so that it looks good from the outside and everyone's happy.

You also realize that these are all things that I can't say out loud in public ?

Like I said, give me some specific examples of people who have caused harm to others because they were chosen based on their race or sex, or whatever and were not qualified for the job. If this is a serious issue, then I would be more than willing to give your argument some further thought.