Gold Standard Plans - build with 24.75" fret template - Question over body/neck joint position

[PeteCo]

Hi Folks

I am well into my first 2 LP style builds using the Gold Standard Plans so kindly complied and shared on this form. I have all my templates made and have 2 nice mahogany necks coming along very well. My fretting jig and steel template is 24.75" scale - so I have to use that for these builds.

I am just at the point of cutting the neck tenons using @Freddy G router jig concept to get the clean 4.4 degree angle and perfectly symmetrical tenon shoulders. Its a superb idea.

However I just want to check one thing about where exactly I should make the cut for the start of the tenon.....

I am using carefully dimensioned body templates I have made using the Gold Standard plans ( excellent resource btw ! ).

Standard plans indicate that my neck should joint at the middle of the 16th Fret. But I am not sure if the Bridge position on the Gold Standard plans - which I calculate to be drawn from the front of the body at 11.278" on the treble side, and 11.342" on the bass side - will work OK with a fretboard made using a 24.75" scale. I guess I am asking whether the Gold Standard plans were designed for a 24.536" Rule of 18 scale , or 24.625" to be vintage correct ?

I really need to understand before I start cutting tenons !!! If there's enough tolerance in the bridge position not to worry about the difference in scales, then fine - but .2" seems too much to compensate if I get it wrong!

Any advice much appreciated , cheers from the UK
Pete

 

[PeteCo]

Hi Folks

I am well into my first 2 LP style builds using the Gold Standard Plans so kindly complied and shared on this form. I have all my templates made and have 2 nice mahogany necks coming along very well. My fretting jig and steel template is 24.75" scale - so I have to use that for these builds.

I am just at the point of cutting the neck tenons using @Freddy G router jig concept to get the clean 4.4 degree angle and perfectly symmetrical tenon shoulders. Its a superb idea.

However I just want to check one thing about where exactly I should make the cut for the start of the tenon.....

I am using carefully dimensioned body templates I have made using the Gold Standard plans ( excellent resource btw ! ).

Standard plans indicate that my neck should joint at the middle of the 16th Fret. But I am not sure if the Bridge position on the Gold Standard plans - which I calculate to be drawn from the front of the body at 11.278" on the treble side, and 11.342" on the bass side - will work OK with a fretboard made using a 24.75" scale. I guess I am asking whether the Gold Standard plans were designed for a 24.536" Rule of 18 scale , or 24.625" to be vintage correct ?

I really need to understand before I start cutting tenons !!! If there's enough tolerance in the bridge position not to worry about the difference in scales, then fine - but .2" seems too much to compensate if I get it wrong!

Any advice much appreciated , cheers from the UK
Pete

OK - I see my first error - the 11.278" measurement from the front of the body is to the treble TAILPIECE post position - not the ABR treble bridge post location. Still - does it mean I need to move the drill holes for the bridge and make them different to the ones shown on the Gold Standard Plans ?
Thanks

 

[Daniels Guitars]

No idea why you're talking about bridge positions when all you need to do is cut your mortice in the body with the correct bridge height, obviously your carve will determine this and your neck plane.

You don't drill your abr1 post holes until your neck is glued in, I also do my stop tail after my necks in because I want to make sure it all lines up rather than just guess.

Just concentrate on getting your tenon at the 16th fret, I just measure where my 16th is from the back of the nut, everything else will work out OK imo.

I use a sliding bevel to get the angle on the body and transfer it to the neck.

 

[pshupe]

This happens quite a bit and I still something I am not completely sure of the correct answer. Did Gibson every use 24.75" for a scale length. It seems they did very early on, and switched to Rule of 18 for the burst era, followed closely on the heels of going to 24.5625" after, or around, 1960. I believe later still they went to 24.625". One of the things that makes this more confusing is most people not completely in "the know" called any of those Gibson scales, 24.75". Probably just to differentiate it from Fender scale which was / is mainly 25.5".

IMO the bridge should not be measured / intonated and drilled until after the neck is set. I usually intonate to set the bridge, so it is really just dependent on my scale length to get it close and then intonation to set it properly.

If you want to join the neck to the body like an 59 LP Standard then place the fret board, or calculate the distance to the 16th fret and that is where the shoulders of the tenon should be cut. The difference between the 4 scales mentioned are very slight about an 1/8" actually. This should not affect anything other than the bridge location.

Cheers Peter.

EDIT - valvetoneman beat me to it, but I have more words! LOL

 

[Daniels Guitars]

This happens quite a bit and I still am not completely sure the correct answer here. Did Gibson every use 24.75" for a scale length. It seems they did very early on, and switched to Rule of 18 for the burst era, followed closely on the heels of going to 24.5625" after, or around, 1960. I believe later still they went to 24.625". One of the things that makes this more confusing is most people not completely in "the know" called any of those Gibson scaled 24.75". Probably just to differentiate it from Fender scale which was / is mainly 25.5".

IMO the bridge should not be measured / intonated and drilled until after the neck is set. I usually intonate to set the bridge, so it is really just dependent on my scale length to get it close and then intonation to set it properly.

If you want to join the neck to the body like an 59 LP Standard then place the fret board, or calculate the distance to the 16th fret and that is where the shoulders of the tenon should be cut. The difference between the 4 scales mentioned are very slight about an 1/8" actually. This should not affect anything other than the bridge location.

Cheers Peter.

EDIT - valvetoneman beat me to it, but I have more words! LOL

It was never a true 24.75 imo, that fret scale must have been used way before bursts

 

[pshupe]

It was never a true 24.75 imo, that fret scale must have been used way before bursts

Yes, I heard in the 1930's, I think. Off the top of my head.

 

[Daniels Guitars]

Yes, I heard in the 1930's, I think. Off the top of my head.

Well that couldn't have been a modern fret scale, also never heard that they used another scale before, not sure on dates but I know they've used different so called 24.75 measurements at different times

I'm not even sure when the modern way of calculating frets was used, I don't get bogged down with this stuff, I only use the old scale

 

[pshupe]

Stew Mac has this posted on their web site. Take it with a grain of salt but seems to line up with my thoughts. Other than 1959, which should be rule of 18, but could be functionally 24 9/16" just different fret spacing in between.

This also aligns with the Bartlett plans because Tom gives a vintage and modern scale with the same size fret board and very close measurements at the 16th fret. The modern being the 24 9/16" or (24.5625")

Regards Peter.

 

[pshupe]

r a 24.536" Rule of 18 scale , or 24.625" to be vintage correct ?

BTW - 24 5/8" is not vintage correct. See above but the "rule of 18" would be vintage correct, which is just the algorithm applied to find individual fret slot distances. It should be very close to 24 9/16", modern scale, in overall scale length. But again, I usually intonate after the neck and fret board are glued up to fix the bridge location.

Regards Peter.

 

[Daniels Guitars]

BTW - 24 5/8" is not vintage correct. See above but the "rule of 18" would be vintage correct, which is just the algorithm applied to find individual fret slot distances. It should be very close to 24 9/16", modern scale, in overall scale length. But again, I usually intonate after the neck and fret board are glued up to fix the bridge location.

Regards Peter.

The above is what I was thinking but the 54 measurement is really puzzling, next time I look at one I'll look at the fret scale, I see no reason why it's different.

What I should've said is measure the 16th fret from whatever scale you're using, it's just i don't use anything else and haven't for years, i use it on all my builds not just vintage spec stuff, btw I built a reverse firebird, It's in paint right now and it's getting aged.

 

[pshupe]

The above is what I was thinking but the 54 measurement is really puzzling, next time I look at one I'll look at the fret scale, I see no reason why it's different.

What I should've said is measure the 16th fret from whatever scale you're using, it's just i don't use anything else and haven't for years, i use it on all my builds not just vintage spec stuff, btw I built a reverse firebird, It's in paint right now and it's getting aged.

Another thing about these scales is that accuracy does not really matter very much. The difference between rule of 18 and 24 9/16" and even 24 5/8" isn't very much. Especially taking into consideration that any parallel fret scale is not accurate on all the strings. It is something that would not have made much difference at the factory. As long as the bridge could be intonated and it played reasonably close open and fretted. Then it was all good. We take a microscope and micrometer and find one vintage guitar that seemed be at 24 5/8" scale length and question the vintage scale. We have to get over it. I even heard there was a number of years where one of Gibsons arbor fret slotting saws was off substantially. There would have conceivably been thousands of guitars slotted wrong. Or more commonly had incorrect bridge placement. It's just the way things were done back then on a manufactured item not dissimilar to a chair or coffee table. They did not agonize over the details.

Cheers Peter.

 

[Daniels Guitars]

Another thing about these scales is that accuracy does not really matter very much. The difference between rule of 18 and 24 9/16" and even 24 5/8" isn't very much. Especially taking into consideration that any parallel fret scale is not accurate on all the strings. It is something that would not have made much difference at the factory. As long as the bridge could be intonated and it played reasonably close open and fretted. Then it was all good. We take a microscope and micrometer and find one vintage guitar that seemed be at 24 5/8" scale length and question the vintage scale. We have to get over it. I even heard there was a number of years where one of Gibsons arbor fret slotting saws was off substantially. There would have conceivably been thousands of guitars slotted wrong. Or more commonly had incorrect bridge placement. It's just the way things were done back then on a manufactured item not dissimilar to a chair or coffee table. They did not agonize over the details.

Cheers Peter.

One thing I do know is the old rule works, I've had comments about how well intonated my guitar are right up and down the neck, even a bog standard kluson wraparound is pretty much spot on.

 

[pshupe]

One thing I do know is the old rule works, I've had comments about how well intonated my guitar are right up and down the neck, even a bog standard kluson wraparound is pretty much spot on.

I've done most of the Gibson scales and Fender scale as well. I have my favorites but if you are meticulous, I feel like, they can all play very well. I'm more careful about fret and nut work which is where I spend a lot of time.

Cheers Peter.

 

[JBL Instruments]

I was chatting with another forum member a couple months ago re Tom's plans and the Gold Std plans. The 16th fret location came up in the conversation. Tom's plans show it centered directly over the seam. We started looking at a bunch of examples at burstserial.com
Many show the bridge side of the fret next to the seam maybe even .020"ish closer to the nut.
I'm not suggesting either way is correct or not just curious to hear what others have to say...

9 0695 from burstserial

Greeny

 

[PeteCo]

Cool, I think am with it now...many thanks guys.

I will cut so the top of my tenon joint is exactly under the middle of the 16th fret position and then dry set the neck, and measure the bridge position to get correct locations for my 24.75" scale.
Simple really - I don't know why I was struggling with it. Wise advice guys. Thanks for making it clear.

But.....I must check my "24.75" fret template to see what rule it follows - 12th root of 2. or rule of 18. And whether its actually a true 24.75" or not.

Its interesting to compare the placement of the 16th fret tenon joint for a nominal 24.75" and a vintage correct 24.5625" scale using the two different rules :

for 24.75" scale...
* rule of 18 gives it at 14.833 inches from the nut.
* rule of 12th root of 2 gives it at 14.928 inches from the nut

Difference is 0.095 in - in metric for us Uk guys its 2.413 mm. This is significant when it comes to saddle travel.

For a 24 9/16ths scale then....

* Rule of 18 gives 16th fret at 14.72"
* Rule of 12th root of 2 gives 14.815"

Difference is still 0.095 in (2.413mm)

Assuming that my fretting template has been made for a 24.75" scale, and its following 12th root of 2 then, 14.928-14.815 = 0.113 inches difference (2.87mm) So, depending on which algorithm was used to make the template makes over a 0.1inch difference in location of the bridge.

But then if I change string gauge........

 

[Daniels Guitars]

I was chatting with another forum member a couple months ago re Tom's plans and the Gold Std plans. The 16th fret location came up in the conversation. Tom's plans show it centered directly over the seam. We started looking at a bunch of examples at burstserial.com
Many show the bridge side of the fret next to the seam maybe even .020"ish closer to the nut.
I'm not suggesting either way is correct or not just curious to hear what others have to say...

9 0695 from burstserial
View attachment 643800

Greeny
View attachment 643801

I think it's just where that tenon was fitted that day and most look to me like the 16th fret is slightly forward to the nut side, I don't aim for bang in the middle of the fret slot, think it's just because that's how most old one's look to me and I'm used to it.

None of them are exactly the same imo.

 

[pshupe]

Cool, I think am with it now...many thanks guys.

I will cut so the top of my tenon joint is exactly under the middle of the 16th fret position and then dry set the neck, and measure the bridge position to get correct locations for my 24.75" scale.
Simple really - I don't know why I was struggling with it. Wise advice guys. Thanks for making it clear.

But.....I must check my "24.75" fret template to see what rule it follows - 12th root of 2. or rule of 18. And whether its actually a true 24.75" or not.

Its interesting to compare the placement of the 16th fret tenon joint for a nominal 24.75" and a vintage correct 24.5625" scale using the two different rules :

for 24.75" scale...
* rule of 18 gives it at 14.833 inches from the nut.
* rule of 12th root of 2 gives it at 14.928 inches from the nut

Difference is 0.095 in - in metric for us Uk guys its 2.413 mm. This is significant when it comes to saddle travel.

For a 24 9/16ths scale then....

* Rule of 18 gives 16th fret at 14.72"
* Rule of 12th root of 2 gives 14.815"

Difference is still 0.095 in (2.413mm)

Assuming that my fretting template has been made for a 24.75" scale, and its following 12th root of 2 then, 14.928-14.815 = 0.113 inches difference (2.87mm) So, depending on which algorithm was used to make the template makes over a 0.1inch difference in location of the bridge.

But then if I change string gauge........

Not sure what you are using for your scales but the vintage rule of 18 scale and the modern 24 9/16" scale have the 16th fret off by 0.007" or 0.18mm. It's also very little difference in scale length between these two scales. Meaning that even though the distance to the first fret is substantially different as well as the difference between where the 22nd fret lays the scale length is very close. It's just the spacing or the difference in the algorithm. The rule of 18, distance between frets, starts off longer, and ends shorter, which makes up the difference. I would suggest getting a set of Tom's drawings and checking the two different scales listed.

Regards Peter

 

[pshupe]

I think it's just where that tenon was fitted that day and most look to me like the 16th fret is slightly forward to the nut side, I don't aim for bang in the middle of the fret slot, think it's just because that's how most old one's look to me and I'm used to it.

None of them are exactly the same imo.

There are also lots of options here. Did they line them up on the 4 degree angle or straight above? If the neck angle needed to be lowered then the shoulders would be sanded, changing the join location. Again we are agonizing over these minute details that make no difference. Anyone that has built a few of these guitars can see exactly why there are these differences. Wood moves. Even if you cut with a CNC with a tolerance of 1 of 2 thousands of an inch. The wood can swell and shift differently based on grain orientation and density.

Regards Peter.

 

[PeteCo]

Thanks guys - all this is very helpful and educational. My LP builds will be only my 8th and 9th builds - so I have lots to learn!

Looking at various examples in BOTB book i see quite a few which have the 16th fret located on the nut side of the body joint.

I wont agonise over it and instrad focus on getting a near perfect joint and the right angles.

Thanks again
Pete

 

[ARandall]

I was chatting with another forum member a couple months ago re Tom's plans and the Gold Std plans. The 16th fret location came up in the conversation. Tom's plans show it centered directly over the seam. We started looking at a bunch of examples at burstserial.com
Many show the bridge side of the fret next to the seam maybe even .020"ish closer to the nut.
I'm not suggesting either way is correct or not just curious to hear what others have to say...

9 0695 from burstserial
View attachment 643800

Greeny
View attachment 643801

I wouldn't be trusting the join location from those photos. If you align the centre of the pic its about where the bridge pickup is.......and then look how far off the centre of the top of the knobs are compared to the skirts, and that will tell you just how far the neck joint location could be off as well.