You believe in ghost?

Arzachel

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I live next to this derelict tis a place of shadows :) it gets featured a lot as haunted on TV, it isn't, it was never complete so was never lived in but if ever there was a place that should be its here

6613154351_d9721523e0_b.jpg
 

Spirithawk

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In a house we lived in in St. Louis we had a window that kept coming open. It was a stained glass double window that one side swung to the left and the other to the right like doors. There was a latch in the middle that you twisted to lock the window closed. After it being found open many times, knowing it had been securely latched closed, I decided to settle the problem one day. I took a metal rod, such as you use in closets, the kind that screws out to extend it so the ends are tight against each wall, and after latching the window placed it in front of them so they couldn't swing open even if unlatched. I made sure it was a very tight fit. So much so that I couldn't jerk it out of the window. As I turned away from the window I commented to my wife that that should solve the problem! No sooner did I say that the rod flew across the room and turning to look the window was again unlatched and wide open! Just one of many odd things I've had occur and untill explained they remain unexplained, therefore I keep an open mind!
 

Caoimhin

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I live next to this derelict tis a place of shadows :) it gets featured a lot as haunted on TV, it isn't, it was never complete so was never lived in but if ever there was a place that should be its here

6613154351_d9721523e0_b.jpg

Whats the name of the place? I like the picture.
 

Thumpalumpacus

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I had the same smug attitude about this sorta thing until I actually experienced it. :wave:

I don't think it's smug at all. I think it's a good observation. The human mind has evolved to be a pattern-seeking machine, and to that end, it will create a pattern where none exists. That is an illusion, too.

How many triangles are in this picture?

kanisza.gif


Granted that that is a different sort of illusion/pattern ... but the point is that saying we're built to see illusions isn't smug -- it's just a plain observation. Now, had he said, "You silly humans, falling for those illusions ..." -- that would be smug.

One of the things about this thread that cracks me up at the same time it makes me shake my head in wonderment is all the demands for an explanation of some sort from those who "believe".

There isn't one. It's a mystery. All I can really tell you is that I saw what I saw, and having enjoyed many hallucinations over the years, I'm very confident that these weren't hallucinations, drug-induced or otherwise.

Honestly, the ghosts didn't freak me out all that much. It was the demons, one in particular that was observed by 2 people at the same time, that really shook my my faith in Materialism.

Something's out there. :cool:

This is fine. However, it baffles me why believers should expect to have their stories accepted without any support other than their personal eyewitness reports.
 

Spirithawk

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For my part I realy don't care if anyone believes me. I've nothing to prove one way or another. I make my own decisions on what I believe and don't allow others to do it for me. It's like giving advice. You simply pass it on and it's up to others whether to acept it or not. Whether they do, or don't, doesn't change what you know yourself.
 

X–Ray

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__________________
sigpic12961_14.gif

Originally Posted by jonas335
I would like to believe in ghosts, in UFOs, in religion, but ...
__________________
sigpic12961_14.gif

Couldn't have put it better myself..:applause:

The need for illusion runs deep in all of us...:)
possibly, the need for hope runs deeply in all of us... :hmm:
 

Skintaster

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This is fine. However, it baffles me why believers should expect to have their stories accepted without any support other than their personal eyewitness reports.

I'm going to say this (And it's not aimed at you Thump), but as a general "unbeliever" myself, I think there IS often a smug undercurrent to these types of threads, where skeptics and the like tend to ridicule or force their opinion a little much.

There's a time and a place for that sort of forceable skepticism - Such as when someone is arguing to make laws based on superstition, or wants to force others to believe whatever mythology they do, but sometimes I think fellow skeptics take the need to "win" these types of unwinnable arguments a bit far.

It's one thing to say "I don't believe in ghosts, and there's no way prove their existence. There's no way this phenomena can be measured or studied by accepted scientific means, and it remains in the realm of personal faith. - Or something to that affect.

But there have also been a few smart ass responses, trying to argue that a belief in ghosts is just plain stupid.

Whether I believe personally that it's a stupid belief, I don't see how arguing with believers benefits anything. It's one of the reasons I generally stay clear of certain well known skeptical inquiry forums - Too many of the "smart kids" dogpiling on those they perceive as being stupid or ill informed.

Anyway, I'm not blaming any one specifically here, it's just something I've noticed. - Just my two cents.
 

Lampens

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I don't know about ghosts. i've heard stories of people experiencing some weird shit when a relative had died. my sister saw my dad in his suit that he was going to be buried in saying goodbye in a dream she had right at about the moment of him dying. I slept the last night with him in the room. I set him in front of the tv to watch some english premier league soccer and left that morning. I said I'd be back that afternoon. Twenty minutes later he was dead. I didn't sense anything when I was driving home, but apparently my sis did.
I've heard similar stuff from other people. Maybe it's just mindtricks, coincidence in my sisters case. We knew he was going to die real soon He certainly wouldn't have lived for another week. We thought he was going the day before, all the signs were there but he came out of it and had a pretty good last evening. Weird.

And I've been to Bergen Belsen. really eerie place. You didn't hear anything, no birds. I'd heard the same stories of others who visited. But also people who just heard the regular bird noises. Maybe the time of year had something to do with it.
heard the same of other places where terrible stuff had happened, like former battlefields. But then again, maybe they're just mindtricks. We expect it to be eerie and fill in the blanks ourselves.
 

Skintaster

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I have to add that as mentioned, it's a part of the human mind to automatically look for patterns and "relationships" between things - Seeing faces in the clouds for instance. It's a byproduct of evolution.

However, while it certainly can't be proven in any way, I don't automatically discount every story of a person having a weird premonition that soon proves to be true. Coincidence? Probably... And while I don't "believe" this sort of thing out of hand, I don't just pretend to know that unexplained phenomena ALWAYS lies outside of the unexplored potential of the human mind.
 

kevin65

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When I was young and going to discos I used to walk about 1.5 miles to town and home again. Part of the route was along a relativel deserted road in the middle of forestry, all that could be heard was my footsteps and the whooshing of the wind through the trees, making it very creepy indeed. Did I ever see or hear any ghosts, fairies, leprauchans, goblins on these late walks home alone? No, never.

I have never seen a ghost, but I have had a couple of unexplained incidents, so I wouldn't discount the paranormal.

Many years ago I was staying in a flat in London after college when I was woken by a hand brushing against my face. I woke straight away and there was no-one there, everyone else in the flat was asleep.

A few years ago I had carpet for an old BMW stored in my garage. It was there for a while and didn't get used so it was taken out to be dumped. In the middle of it there was a copy of a holy magazine about Medjugorje! I cleaned that carpet before putting away so it definitely wasn't there then. How it got there I will never know. It now sits under a mat in my current classic BMW.

Unexplained? Yes. Scary? No. Do I believe in ghosts? Maybe.:hmm:
 

mudfinger

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I don't think it's smug at all. I think it's a good observation. The human mind has evolved to be a pattern-seeking machine, and to that end, it will create a pattern where none exists. That is an illusion, too.

How many triangles are in this picture?

kanisza.gif


Granted that that is a different sort of illusion/pattern ... but the point is that saying we're built to see illusions isn't smug -- it's just a plain observation. Now, had he said, "You silly humans, falling for those illusions ..." -- that would be smug.


This is fine. However, it baffles me why believers should expect to have their stories accepted without any support other than their personal eyewitness reports.

Phil's attitude is smug, not yours. You take the proposition seriously enough to engage in thoughtful debate. That is to say, you support your position with something more substantial than, "I haven't seen them, therefore you're all loons".

I'm not asking anyone to believe me. Hell, I'm bat-shit crazy with a side order of stupid, but I saw what I saw. It wasn't an illusion, and it defies everything I know about the laws of physics. I can live with that; some folks can't. Most likely, in my view, we aren't nearly as knowledgeable about how the universe works as we'd like to think, and a small measure of doubt is a good thing. :thumb:
 

Spirithawk

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A mystery is just that...a mystery. It's not called a fact. When an answer is unknown it is often those who think outside the box that discovers the truth. There are many things once thought to be impossible, thought to be myths, legends, pure fancy, that have now been proven as fact so I choose to keep an open mind. It's those who "think" they know the truth, who refuse to debate the truth, that seldom ever realy discover the truth. It's often those kind of people that keep the truth from ever being found! As Lilly Tomlin would say, " And that's the truth! :p "
 

Thumpalumpacus

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I'm going to say this (And it's not aimed at you Thump), but as a general "unbeliever" myself, I think there IS often a smug undercurrent to these types of threads, where skeptics and the like tend to ridicule or force their opinion a little much.

There's a time and a place for that sort of forceable skepticism - Such as when someone is arguing to make laws based on superstition, or wants to force others to believe whatever mythology they do, but sometimes I think fellow skeptics take the need to "win" these types of unwinnable arguments a bit far.

It's one thing to say "I don't believe in ghosts, and there's no way prove their existence. There's no way this phenomena can be measured or studied by accepted scientific means, and it remains in the realm of personal faith. - Or something to that affect.

But there have also been a few smart ass responses, trying to argue that a belief in ghosts is just plain stupid.

Whether I believe personally that it's a stupid belief, I don't see how arguing with believers benefits anything. It's one of the reasons I generally stay clear of certain well known skeptical inquiry forums - Too many of the "smart kids" dogpiling on those they perceive as being stupid or ill informed.

Anyway, I'm not blaming any one specifically here, it's just something I've noticed. - Just my two cents.

It's true that there is sometimes smugness in skeptics. It's also true that I've felt it myself at times. As I've gotten older I've come to understand that while I do indeed think I am right about this, that doesn't make me a better person, and that humility is a good thing. I'm not always successful, and the ability to be a condescending dick is definitely in my makeup.

I don't think Phil's statement falls into that category, though. It didn't rub me that way, at least.

One good thing about these sorts of discussions is that it allows each "side" of the debate to present their chain of reasoning. Being exposed to things with which you disagree is almost always a good thing, in my opinion, because it forces me to think outside of my own little box, and to re-examine what I hold to be true. I think that process should be an ongoing thing. And I think that anyone who thinks that they have arrived at The Truth in all likelihood hasn't.
 

McCloud9

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I believe. No one else must believe what I believe and with many things in life the only evidence will be that of our own experience. Until someone has experienced something it is easy to write it off if one decides to. A lot of non-believers become believers at some point when their own personal experience is expanded over time. Nothing stays the same. There is really no point in trying to make believers out of nonbelievers . I think we all would like evidence of lives mysteries, like what really is on the other side of the curtain we call death. I've had a number of experiences in life that had an impact on what I believe in. I dont know why they happen or how or if they could be explained away because I was researching my grandfathers WWII history when one happened so he was very much in my thoughts when the experience happened, are they real or can an explained away as a function of the brain I do not know. My experiences are real enough for me. Why is it with ghost experiences sometimes we know the person and in letter cases we never seen the person before?

I ask that question because I could see a link between someone we knew in life after they are gone but that is not the case where ghosts are seen and the same "apparition" is seen by more than one person either at the same time or different times.
So many interesting things in life that can not be explained away by science. Many people who have "died" but were revived share similar experiences. This has always fascinated me. There is a lot to either choose to believe in or not and only our own personal experiences will dictate the outcome. Since everyones personal experiences are continually growing, it would be interesting to see how many peoples beliefs are changed at some point because of a new personal experience. Multiple planes of extience that occasionally overlap in time? Who knows . I dont even know if we will find out when we are on the other side but all of this is interesting to consider.
 

Skintaster

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It's true that there is sometimes smugness in skeptics. It's also true that I've felt it myself at times. As I've gotten older I've come to understand that while I do indeed think I am right about this, that doesn't make me a better person, and that humility is a good thing. I'm not always successful, and the ability to be a condescending dick is definitely in my makeup.

I don't think Phil's statement falls into that category, though. It didn't rub me that way, at least.

One good thing about these sorts of discussions is that it allows each "side" of the debate to present their chain of reasoning. Being exposed to things with which you disagree is almost always a good thing, in my opinion, because it forces me to think outside of my own little box, and to re-examine what I hold to be true. I think that process should be an ongoing thing. And I think that anyone who thinks that they have arrived at The Truth in all likelihood hasn't.

Agreed. I'm not calling anyone out specifically, and I didn't actually see Phil's comment. He generally doesn't seem like the type of person that goes out of his way to insult someone, so I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt anyway.

It's just a minor annoyance of mine... Being a skeptic myself, I try to resist the urge to think I know how everything works in this world - Because I don't. :)

I find that attitude as tiresome as the true believers that want everyone to bow to their view.

However, I do think that respectful debate is a great and desirable thing. I learn new things from many of these discussions, even if my opinion isn't always changed in the long run.
 

Thumpalumpacus

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I find that attitude as tiresome as the true believers that want everyone to bow to their view.

Yup. When I was modding at the freethought site, one of the most annoying things was seeing evangelistic atheists come in with just as many preconceived notions and preachy attitudes as they people they judge "irrational".
 

mudfinger

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I'm not trying to bust Phil's balls, he's a good guy. :thumb:

And, as I mentioned, I used to hold a similarly dismissive view of such things, including a couple of experiences early in life that I tried very hard to classify as hallucinations. Didn't work out in the long run. :laugh2:
 

X–Ray

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I'm going to say this (And it's not aimed at you Thump), but as a general "unbeliever" myself, I think there IS often a smug undercurrent to these types of threads, where skeptics and the like tend to ridicule or force their opinion a little much.

There's a time and a place for that sort of forceable skepticism - Such as when someone is arguing to make laws based on superstition, or wants to force others to believe whatever mythology they do, but sometimes I think fellow skeptics take the need to "win" these types of unwinnable arguments a bit far.

It's one thing to say "I don't believe in ghosts, and there's no way prove their existence. There's no way this phenomena can be measured or studied by accepted scientific means, and it remains in the realm of personal faith. - Or something to that affect.

But there have also been a few smart ass responses, trying to argue that a belief in ghosts is just plain stupid.

Whether I believe personally that it's a stupid belief, I don't see how arguing with believers benefits anything. It's one of the reasons I generally stay clear of certain well known skeptical inquiry forums - Too many of the "smart kids" dogpiling on those they perceive as being stupid or ill informed.

Anyway, I'm not blaming any one specifically here, it's just something I've noticed. - Just my two cents.
i think what you are observing is the difference between skepticism and cynicism among the comments...

the devil is in the details... of definitions
 

X–Ray

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<snip>

I set him in front of the tv to watch some english premier league soccer and left that morning. I said I'd be back that afternoon. Twenty minutes later he was dead... Weird

<snip>
check out:

Final Gifts: Understanding the Special Awareness, Needs, and Communications of the Dying by Callanan & Kelley
 

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