Winders-Any Advice?

[larryguitar]

I've been winding casually for a couple months now, and it's a complete rabbit hole...I've no intention of going into the business, but wanted to be able to create the 'voice' for the guitars I build (which are only for myself, or given as gifts.) It's a deep subject, and utterly fascinating.

I've wound about 15 humbuckers to date, with varying levels of success. I'm now trying to sort of zero in on being able to predict the sound I get, rather than just experiment to see what various techniques do.

I've always been a fan of the Duncan JB (feel free to deride me, I can't help it), and I've been trying to wind a 53MM humbucker with a bit of that character; aggressive midrange, I suppose it would be characterized as.

My latest is the closest I've gotten, but there is a spiky, almost uncontrollable high end that's not at all pleasant. I was wondering if any of the experienced folks on this board might point me at a few ideas for taming the next one?

Specs:
53MM Nylon Bobbins
NS baseplate, 4 conductor wire
Wound with 44AWG Remington wire (they sell it as 'enamel', but I believe it's single-build poly?)
Screw Coil: 6,582 turns, 8.4K, 1022 screws and 1010 keeper
Slug Coil: 6, 588 turns, 8.46K, 12L5 slugs (nickel plated)
A5 polished magnet, (no way to measure, but bought charged and then 'topped-up' with a neo)

I'm winding with a converted lathe and manual traverse, with a tensioner set just below what will break the 44AWG (I back off one turn of the screw tensioning the felts after it snaps) and winding below 1,500 RPM. On this pickup, I worked toward a higher TPL and tried to minimize (as well as a newbie can, of course) scatter.

Any suggestions on something I can try on the next one to avoid the ice-pick highs would be very much appreciated.

Larry

 

[ReWind James]

Assuming you didn't do anything wrong, like use a damaged coil or bad connection, etc...

Commercial A5s are notoriously brittle/harsh in the treble, boomy in the bass, and overly scooped in the mids, even when at their best proper charge.

When you buy them in small quantities, they've probably traveled the world and passed through at least three companies before making it to you. The charge level / alignment is questionable. However, if you're charging with a single neodymium magnet, you are likely not actually charging it, much less charging it with proper alignment. You may be just misaligning it or weakening a part of it. I'd stick with the factory charge, until you get a proper charger and gaussmeter. To use a single neo to evenly charge an AlNiCo bar to saturation, it would have to be a really large and strong neodymium magnet. Significantly larger than the AlNiCo bar. Then, as you pull the AlNiCo away from it, you're dragging it through the neodymium magnet's field, weakening the AlNiCo bar. Charging an AlNiCo bar in a fixed gap between two neos, connected by a C shaped keeper, is more efficient, but you also end up dragging the bar across the field as you remove it. A brute-force electric charger (which is conveniently the least expensive electronic type) is the best for charging small AlNico and ceramic bars.

Other things that are contributing to harsh/brittle treble in a build like you are describing:

extremely thin poly wire
hand-winding coils
1022 screws


I don't know what 12L5 steel is. Are you sure you aren't misreading 1215 steel, thinking the second "1" is an "l"?
I've worked with 12L14 as a leaded steel, and 1215 carbon steel, and I suspect you are actually using one of those, unknowingly.

Keeper bar manufacturing method can be more important than the alloy, to an extent, but it's less significant than the others, I mentioned. I'd address the other items first, in the order I listed them.

 

[larryguitar]

Wow, James, sincerely appreciate your taking the time to reply with such detail.

You are correct (after re-checking), it's actually 1215 steel slugs (nickel plated.)

So I'd be better off with a larger gauge wire (I've got both 42 and 43, both that 'enamel' that really seems to be poly from Remington); I'd used the 44AWG here because I thought that's what the JB used, and wanted to start as close as I could to that 'recipe.'

Can't do much about the hand-winding until I build a traverse system (and considering this is all essentially a 'net loss' hobby, it will have to be more ingenuity than technology, so we'll see what I can come up with there.) I assume that when you say the 1022 screws contribute to the high's, I'd want to look for 1010 or similar?

Again, many thanks for the expert insights; truly appreciated.

Larry

Edited to add: The Neo bar is 4"x1/2"x1/2"; no idea of its gauss, but I store it on the fridge and have to use two hands to pull it off, after sliding and inch or so off an edge. I believe it was rated at 88# of lifting capacity, or something like that.

Larry

 

[ReWind James]

Start with your magnets, both the source and charge. Try some different suppliers. I realize you probably aren't going to buy enough to have custom magnets manufactured, so you have to go though distributers of distributers of resellers of wholesalers and you can't control what you get. Just cast a wide net. Buy a few from every source you can and see what you like.

If you can spend $700-800 you can get a proper electric charger. Your magnet is physically large enough to put an even charge on the magnet. Any neo is strong enough. The problem is how do you remove your charged magnet from the neo without dragging it through the neo's field and weakening and misaligning the AlNiCo? ...you can't. You'd have to turn off the strong charge with a switch to do that. That's a benefit of the electric charger. A Gaussmeter will allow you to verify all this and measure existing magnets but that's another $600-800. With a proper electric charger, you can at least guarantee a confident saturated charge and proper alignment.

^ that - magnet stuff - is going to be the most significant factor, compared to the other options we are discussing here.

Poly insulation is a type of enamel. Companies (both wire and pickup selling companies) sell their products as "enamel wire" to trick the unknowing into thinking they are buying "plain enamel" which is a different and more expensive product. Insulation matters but don't worry about that now. It's a finer detail. Thicker wire of any insulation type will help things sound more full but, with hand-winding, you might not get the turn counts you want to physically fit.

1022 - yes, if you want less treble, use something that will give higher inductance

 

[larryguitar]

Thanks, James. I'll have to experiment with magnets a bit more. Not too inclined to sink $1K or so into a gaussmeter and charger, since (as mentioned) this is just experimentation for me.

I'll try out the recommended alloys, also, and see where I can get.

Thanks again,

Larry

 

[hamerfan]

Look out for this ebay seller: gravitas_studio

He produces a batch for small and cheap gaussmeters from time to time.

 

[dspelman]

I thought this was a computer question.

 

[LtKojak]

Look out for this ebay seller: gravitas_studio

Went out of business last year.

 

[jcohen339]

Philadelphia Luthier Tools & Supplies Guitar building tools and parts

Luthier tools and guitar building parts for domestic and import. You will find knobs, bridges, tailpieces, pickguards, inlays, speciality files, saws

www.philadelphialuthiertools.com

They've got good magnets and stuff.

 

[Jymbopalyse]

I love lurking in these corners.

 

[hamerfan]

Went out of business last year.

What a pity. He made damn nice and inexpensive meters.

 

[copperheadroad]

The 44 gauge wire creates that mid hump in the JB pickup x7100 +/- ....................I have repaired dozens of them .

 

[hamerfan]

Larry, read here for a WT-10A and a cheap LCR Meter too.

Price drops on an a great LCR meter and magnetometer

The DE-5000 LCR meter is single handedly the best device when it comes to pickup analysis, and it used to sell for ~$120 but Im seeing it now for only $80 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005EMT8PC/?tag=tdpri-20 This thing essentially gives you a full workup on pickups. In L/series/100Hz...

www.tdpri.com

 

[larryguitar]

The 44 gauge wire creates that mid hump in the JB pickup x7100 +/- ....................I have repaired dozens of them .

Sorry, is that 7,100 turns? Just trying to be sure I understand.

And Hamerfan, thanks-checking that out now!

Larry

 

[copperheadroad]

Yes.but that is for a 49.2-50mm bobbin you have to adjust slightly for a 53mm bobbin .

 

[ARandall]

I was thinking about that T spaced bobbin just the other day.

If you had the same turns/pattern on the wider bobbin vs the narrower one, would the change in wire length be enough to make for an audible difference in output or tone. I know that this is essentially the difference between 490T and R models....but the different position they are fitted in typically makes any comparison irrelevant.

 

[ReWind James]

I was thinking about that T spaced bobbin just the other day.

If you had the same turns/pattern on the wider bobbin vs the narrower one, would the change in wire length be enough to make for an audible difference in output or tone. I know that this is essentially the difference between 490T and R models....but the different position they are fitted in typically makes any comparison irrelevant.

I don't think the little change in coil width alters the voice that much, as long as the turn counts and other part stay the same. The loading is slightly altered, with the additional wire length, but with the same turn counts the voice is relatively the same.

I suppose the more turns there are, and the finer the wire gauge used, the more that loading difference factor increases so there's probably a point where it becomes significant but, for what we are talking about, the rest of the design of the pickup, not to mention the setup, settings, and the rest of the rig, is far more significant of a factor in the voice.

 

[larryguitar]

Yes.but that is for a 49.2-50mm bobbin you have to adjust slightly for a 53mm bobbin .

I'm having some trouble correllating this-almost certainly my inexperience-with the data I've gotten from my own winding.

I have created a simple Excel sheet which calculates the number of turns required to reach a certain DCR with 42, 43 and 44 gauge wire, with 50 and 53 MM bobbins (the gauges and bobbin sizes I use). I have tweaked these until I can usually get within .2-.3K DCR using the predicted turn count.

To date, my 44AWG (which is what the JB is supposed to be) on a 53MM bobbin reaches 8.4K per coil (for about 16.8K total) at 6,590 turns. This is with hand-wound coils, tensioned to create a neat coil without deforming the bobbin.

My calculator (which is only 'accurate' in predicting me winding on my rig, I'm sure) shows that at 7,100 turns I'll reach 9.05K per bobbin, quite a bit higher than a JB (I have three here to measure, and they show 16.7-17.1K.) I suspect I'll be able to hear that difference, even with my tin little ears....

I know turns determines tone more than DCR, but any ideas why my DCR is so much higher per turn than the SD?

Thanks,

Larry

 

[copperheadroad]

Most likely you are stretching your wire or using too much scatter

 

[TheSpunOne]

i have not read all the posts, but from my experience use 43 awgf plane enamel nominal tension stack wind at roughly50 tpl get to 16.8 however your machine does it but should be a rough6800 slug and 6600 screw. use a ceramicx 8 or just an alnico 8.

sincerely the capt.....