Why does this happen.....?

MiniB

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This may have been gone through before, but why is there varying depths that an ES-335's neck sits in the body? You can tell by how high/low the pick guard sits compared to the cutaway....and consequently the pickups and bridge/tailpiece......






And then a lot of the originals all seem to have it 'high', like.....





Why such variation? Is it one machine set up one way, and another the other way?

Not tha tI think it's a huge deal, but some are very low and it kind of makes the proportions look a bit tubby in comparison to the ones that are higher........

 
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Cjsinla

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They are built by hand, little to no CNC on these. Watch a video of how they’re made, you’ll see that it’s not precise, not cookie-cutter stuff.
 

MiniB

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They are built by hand, little to no CNC on these. Watch a video of how they’re made, you’ll see that it’s not precise, not cookie-cutter stuff.
I realize that but that seems like a big variation in what's essentially a puzzle piece that I always figured was =routed out pretty precisely....like from what I can tell Les Paul's don't have that much variation in at least that area. Maybe it's the step where the neck tenon and heel is shaped, but again can't quite see how a Les Paul's is more consistent....and then the older 335's seemed more consistent too.
 
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ARandall

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Original Les Pauls have massive variation in shape, plus carve proportions.....you've obviously not spent a lot of effort in doing any research there.
Modern ones are very consistent in shape.

As to the 335's, well there are a lot of possible variations.....not the least with the pickguard is precisely where the screw on the side of the body is located....The actual shape of the body and the precise location of the tenon cut are all a bit variable due to the long tenon fitting process.
Another thread very recently on the forum also talked about the variable position of the location of the neck pickup ring vs the fretboard end on reissues......you seem to have missed this as well.

But as to the original question.......Gibson is not at all OCD about utterly irrelevant details. A mm here or there for an inconsequential aspects like where the fretboard actually ends in relation to the body is not important.....especially as what seems to be compared here is a 50's vs 60's ES (which do have different specific constructions)
 

MiniB

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Original Les Pauls have massive variation in shape, plus carve proportions.....you've obviously not spent a lot of effort in doing any research there.
Modern ones are very consistent in shape.

As to the 335's, well there are a lot of possible variations.....not the least with the pickguard is precisely where the screw on the side of the body is located....The actual shape of the body and the precise location of the tenon cut are all a bit variable due to the long tenon fitting process.
Another thread very recently on the forum also talked about the variable position of the location of the neck pickup ring vs the fretboard end on reissues......you seem to have missed this as well.

But as to the original question.......Gibson is not at all OCD about utterly irrelevant details. A mm here or there for an inconsequential aspects like where the fretboard actually ends in relation to the body is not important.....especially as what seems to be compared here is a 50's vs 60's ES (which do have different specific constructions)
No need to be rude and condescending, it was an honest question about clearly visible and measurable variations, and don't see what warranted such attitude....where was I complaining or expressing disdain? And it seems more than a 'mm here or there'.....but thanks for sharing anyway. (?) Nice one.
 
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VictorB

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No need to be rude and condescending, it was an honest question about clearly visible and measurable variations, and don't see what warranted such attitude....where was I complaining or expressing disdain? And it seems more than a 'mm here or there'.....but thanks for sharing anyway. (?) Nice one.
Where’s the attitude? Take a chill pill pal.
 

MiniB

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Where’s the attitude? Take a chill pill pal.
Original Les Pauls have massive variation in shape, plus carve proportions.....you've obviously not spent a lot of effort in doing any research there.
Modern ones are very consistent in shape.

As to the 335's, well there are a lot of possible variations.....not the least with the pickguard is precisely where the screw on the side of the body is located....The actual shape of the body and the precise location of the tenon cut are all a bit variable due to the long tenon fitting process.
Another thread very recently on the forum also talked about the variable position of the location of the neck pickup ring vs the fretboard end on reissues......you seem to have missed this as well.

But as to the original question.......Gibson is not at all OCD about utterly irrelevant details. A mm here or there for an inconsequential aspects like where the fretboard actually ends in relation to the body is not important.....especially as what seems to be compared here is a 50's vs 60's ES (which do have different specific constructions)
:wtf:

Of course I didn't know about this stuff, that's why I FRIGGIN' ASKED!! Thought that's part of what this place is good for, asking questions and learning things. Someone asks directions, do you ridicule him for not knowing the way? I guess if you're this fella you do. I mean sheesh!

If my op came off as complaining, then it wasn't my intent, I was just trying to find out about it. But still....
 
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mudface

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Yup,... ARandall is a knowledgeable luthier with many years experience..... he can be a bit rough, but he means no harm. He just doesn’t like misinformation to run rampant.... I tend to agree.
;)
 

MiniB

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Where did I post misinformation? I was asking a question. As for knowledgable, you could know the secrets of the universe, doesn't make it alright to act like an ass when someone asks why some stars seem to flicker and others don't. Maybe a little less time on luthiery, a little more on tact. "Means no harm..."...so that's him meaning 'good', then? As that asshat puts it...I guess I missed that part. What are the chances the coward won't come back here to prove how little harm he meant?

But fine, still some good info nonetheless, so at least that's something. I'm fine letting it go as along as we all agree it was uncallled for....water under the bridge.
 
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MiniB

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So anyway, back to the subject at hand....


What added maybe a bit of confusion on my part is that the Historic 1959 ES-335's, which I figured would have the 'most' hand fitting/detailing etc. out of all these days, always seemed to come with the pickguard/pickups mounted high. That's one of the reasons I shopped specifically for them and eventually had a few, like the one in my avatar (but the necks ended up being too large for my tastes). But I remember in all the pics online and all the examples I had seen, I never saw much if any gap between the top of the pickguard and the cutaway.

This is the Nashville-made RI, not the more recent Memphis-made ones, so that also sort of put in my mind (mistakenly, perhaps) that that was how it was really 'supposed' to be like....kind of along the lines of the Historic Les Paul pickup spacing vs. USA ones. Anyway yeah, I guess it's just how they've always been and it's more of a tiny aesthetic thing.
 
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bum

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I don't think it's 'supposed to be' anything really man.
You are talking about a guitar made over the span of 8 decades in more than 1 factory miles apart from each other by hundreds of people over the years.
There is a great video of how they build 335s on Youtube, all the various parts are made in a steam press, or other way that makes them all uniform - and when it comes to the part where they fit the body to the neck it's literally a dude with a chisel fitting each one in a bespoke way.
I think the mystery ends there really, I don't think for a second there is a reason beyond this for it.
It's a fair question though, and a good excuse to post a pic of mine :)
335-bw.jpg
 

MiniB

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Yeah, more I look into it there isn't a 'right' or 'wrong'. If there were it'd be more of a topic in places like this right? :p I guess since the neck pockets are machine routed, I figured it would translate more into consistency with the actual neck tenons and heels, but now when I consider the fitting it takes to match angle and heel and the whittling/shaving it may take to get there, I can now see why there can be up to say 1/4" of variation of depth. Also it just seemed more consistent in older models and the Nashville reissues, but it totally makes sense.

Personally I prefer the look/proportions of the higher mount, but at this point it certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker if I really loved the way one played.

And that's a pretty bad-ass combination right there.
 
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bum

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If it helps any the upper fret access is so good I can't see a few millimetres even matter my friend, it's purely a tiny aesthetic thing, I certainly don't notice it while playing :)

Thanks for the kind words, got a Mesa Lone Star now, and it just rocks man
 

MiniB

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If it helps any the upper fret access is so good I can't see a few millimetres even matter my friend, it's purely a tiny aesthetic thing, I certainly don't notice it while playing :)

Thanks for the kind words, got a Mesa Lone Star now, and it just rocks man
Yeah I've had quite a few 335's, and about to get another one. Sometimes when you're choosing, little things like that can drive you a little wacky. Always been more about neck shape for me than that area anyway....and that's a whole other adventure. Lone Star must be great with that, lots of versatility. Was actually looking into the 1-12 combo some time back...but I think it would probably fall through my floor! Holy smokes is it heavy....100W transformers and that big magnet on the speaker, are they trying to mess up the Earth's orbit?!
 
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bum

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Going from a Fender Twin has helped a bit I think, nothing is as heavy as that, it was back breakingly, ludicrously heavy ha ha
 

MiniB

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The Lone Star should have its own moon.

Friend of mine back in the day had a 70's Twin Reverb with two EVM-12L's. We wouldn't let him put it in our cars.
 
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