Why do people say or act like Gibsons are overpriced ??

grumphh

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For all those that do not underwstand the term "overpriced".

An item is overpriced when the profits on it are exceedingly higher than the worth of the labour or material put into it.

That you can still get "discerning customers" to overpay is not an argument for "the price being right" but rather an argument for giving the marketing department more money...
 

mudface

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For all those that do not underwstand the term "overpriced".

An item is overpriced when the profits on it are exceedingly higher than the worth of the labour or material put into it.

That you can still get "discerning customers" to overpay is not an argument for "the price being right" but rather an argument for giving the marketing department more money...
People need to earn a living.

A huge manufacturing plant can’t survive on making a few dollars over “labor and materials”..... not in the United States.

Just the plant itself is sucking up cash just to function on a daily basis. Water, sewer, gas, electric, not to mention internet, phone, media systems,... maintenance,... tooling,...shipping,.....food,.... other contracted services..... all this is before “labor and materials”

People need to earn a living.
 
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grumphh

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People need to earn a living.

A huge manufacturing plant can’t survive on making a few dollars over “labor and materials”..... not in the United States.

Just the plant itself is sucking up cash just to function on a daily basis. Water, sewer, gas, electric, not to mention internet, phone, media systems,... maintenance,... tooling,...shipping,.....food,.... other contracted services..... all this is before “labor and materials”

People need to earn a living.
I was unclear, sorry...

An item is overpriced when the profits on it are exceedingly higher than the cost of production.


OBVIOUSLY you don't have to accept my definition of overpriced, but i think it is a fair definition.

Japan and Korea show us that it is entirely possible to create perfectly playable electric guitars made from mahogany and maple and sell them at prices far lower than Gibson does. Even if you take shipping cost into account.
And please, don't try to make this out as if Korea or Japan are cheaper countries than the US to operate factories in - if anything the US is probably one of the cheapest "developed" countries for manufacturing goods.

Differences in wages are at best a few hundred USD, if that much at all, so the rest of the difference is obviously Gibson grabbing all they can get for profit.
 

mudface

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I was unclear, sorry...
Differences in wages are at best a few hundred USD, if that much at all, so the rest of the difference is obviously Gibson grabbing all they can get for profit.

And what is it exactly that is wrong with that?........isn't that the reason they're in business?

You don't have to buy Gibson. Do you?
 

efstop

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And what is it exactly that is wrong with that?........isn't that the reason they're in business?

You don't have to buy Gibson. Do you?
No, he just feels the need to bash them :D
 

grumphh

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And what is it exactly that is wrong with that?........isn't that the reason they're in business?

You don't have to buy Gibson. Do you?
I just gave you a quick and dirty working definition of the term "overpriced".
It could also be called a money grab. :)

That "the market" will bear overpricing on certain goods is nothing new - it's expensive because you are worth it, honey - but it doesn't change the fact that certain goods ARE overpriced.

Just because you can convince a customer to buy a product that is 3x the price of the competing product it does not mean that the product is actually worth 3x the price :)
Hence: Overpriced. QED.
 

mudface

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I just gave you a quick and dirty working definition of the term "overpriced".
It could also be called a money grab. :)

That "the market" will bear overpricing on certain goods is nothing new - it's expensive because you are worth it, honey - but it doesn't change the fact that certain goods ARE overpriced.

Just because you can convince a customer to buy a product that is 3x the price of the competing product it does not mean that the product is actually worth 3x the price :)
Hence: Overpriced. QED.
"Worth" is subjective isn't it?.............Is a McDonald Big Mac meal worth $8.00?
 

grumphh

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"Worth" is subjective isn't it?.............Is a McDonald Big Mac worth $8.00?
That was my point, "worth" is indeed subjective - but going by production cost to profit ratio it is still very easy to see if something is overpriced or not :)
 

mudface

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That was my point, "worth" is indeed subjective - but going by production cost to profit ratio it is still very easy to see if something is overpriced or not :)
Okay,...i will agree to that.....even if the production costs are less than half the selling price it is "worth" what the buyer is willing to spend..........whether that is right or wrong it is not my call.....Some people's money is worth more to them than other people's money is to them.....not my call either.
 

grumphh

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Okay,...i will agree to that.....even if the production costs are less than half the selling price it is "worth" what the buyer is willing to spend..........whether that is right or wrong it is not my call.....Some people's money is worth more to them than other people's money is to them.....not my call either.
Yes, i think i said it in one of my first posts in this thread - wanting that particular logo on your guitar is a perfectly valid reason to buy one - i am not going to tell people how to spend their money.

However i do reserve the right to say that Gibsons are overpriced, as you (general you) still pay through the nose for that logo on the headstock rather than just the commodity "electric guitar" - a commodity which can be had far cheaper elsewhere.

It's a bit like phones, some are very expensive yet offer nothing the competition cannot offer at a significantly lower price...
 

Shelkonnery

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We're definitely overanalyzing here, making claims like we're factory experts or trying to justify some dumb quick math.

We just gotta have that beautiful headstock.
Our favorite artits stablished them and the tone is magical. Heaps of added value.
It's not rocket science. It's sentimental, it defeats logic.

You don't have to buy Gibson. Do you?
Thank you! It's that simple really.
 

Wrench66

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I was unclear, sorry...

An item is overpriced when the profits on it are exceedingly higher than the cost of production.


OBVIOUSLY you don't have to accept my definition of overpriced, but i think it is a fair definition.

Japan and Korea show us that it is entirely possible to create perfectly playable electric guitars made from mahogany and maple and sell them at prices far lower than Gibson does. Even if you take shipping cost into account.
And please, don't try to make this out as if Korea or Japan are cheaper countries than the US to operate factories in - if anything the US is probably one of the cheapest "developed" countries for manufacturing goods.

Differences in wages are at best a few hundred USD, if that much at all, so the rest of the difference is obviously Gibson grabbing all they can get for profit.
So you know for a fact that the profits on, say a Les Paul Standard, are "exceedingly higher than the cost of production"? If, please enlighten me, what does it cost Gibson to produce a Les Paul Standard and what are the profits per guitar?
 

LeftyF2003

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Although, different from Gibson, going back to the '78-82 era, the Fender Strats were not as desirable a guitar as the Gibsons -- Les Pauls, SGs, Explorers, etc. Yes, everybody salivated over the "pre-CBS" Strats for sure, but not the new ones. At that time, the move to heavily modded Strats was started by EVH and was in full force. As such, your "maybe it was WAY overpriced in 1978" statement is right on the money ... ?

(Just my humble observation)
I can attest to that. I had a burgundy '78 Strat with a maple neck and black guard, and it looked great. Played like a dog with a baseball bat neck, weighed a ton and sounded awful, so I only used it for band pics. I ended up selling it for the $500.00 I got it for and was happy to be rid of it.

Cruise Control levitt Resize.jpg


Here's what I actually played at the gig

Early with Ibanez Professional.jpg

1978 Ibanez Professional flipped to left handed. That thing also weighed a ton, but man did it scream!

Live at the Tin Whistle Cafe, 1984

Cruise Control - Motion Potion
 
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grumphh

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So you know for a fact that the profits on, say a Les Paul Standard, are "exceedingly higher than the cost of production"? If, please enlighten me, what does it cost Gibson to produce a Les Paul Standard and what are the profits per guitar?
Oooooh, the question no one can answer. (Unless actually CFO at the company) Good one. You sir, win the internets.

Everyone with half a brain can see that machine-carving a few bits of wood (wholesale worth appr 30 USD) and gluing them together and then spraying them with car paint must be hideously expensive.
That other developed countries can perform this task at a 3rd the price of Gibson surely is no sign of Gibson being overpriced. At all.

Are you guys really that insecure about your vanity purchases? :rofl:
I mean, everybody knows that nostalgia/legacy marketing lets manufacturers put an extra high price tag on their product, and even better, discerning consumers LOVE to show* other people how much a given product did cost, as that directly reflects on their net worth

* Hence the importance of recognized brand names and logos, how else would anyone else know that your product was way overpriced, yet you still chose to blow your cash on it?
 

Alaska Mike

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We're definitely overanalyzing here, making claims like we're factory experts or trying to justify some dumb quick math.

We just gotta have that beautiful headstock.
Our favorite artists established them and the tone is magical. Heaps of added value.
It's not rocket science. It's sentimental, it defeats logic.
Pretty much this.
For a company that was/is as debt-burdened as Gibson was/is ($500 million in 2018 before the bankruptcy is the number tossed around) with still-viable image/desirability, I don't blame them for trying squeak every dollar out of it. However, especially given their PR missteps of the past couple years, you really have to make sure your product is top-notch to sustain that goodwill in the long term. I really hope they focus on QC and production process improvement, because that's how you keep them coming back for more.

Are the prices out of line with inflation? Again, no.

Is the product (the physical object, take away the image/logo) worth the price? It's debatable. When they're good, they're really, really good. When they're bad...

Coming back from that level of mismanagement takes time. As much as Henry E. Juszkiewicz and Co thought they were doing the right thing by branching into consumer electronics and lifestyle branding, instead of future-proofing the company it doomed it to bankruptcy. To be fair, they could have never seen the COVID-boom coming. But they really had one real asset, their guitars, and the lack of focus on that core pillar and the continued siphoning off of resources from it cost them. It still is costing them. If a Bain Capital or their ilk eventually buys a significant stake, it could be Guitar Center all over again.

Fender bounced back. Like them or hate them, they're killing it. Quality guitars at a wide range of prices, which builds brand loyalty from the beginner stage all the way to blues lawyer. They're actively marketing to a wider demographic, including women and minorities. No, not the old Robert Cray and Bonnie Raitt models, but culturally relevant artists like H.E.R. They're branching into distanced-learning with Fender Play, which isn't too far out of their wheelhouse and can further solidify brand loyalty. Fender amplifiers are being designed and marketed to play on their traditional strengths, rather than trying to be something they're not. They do have QC issues as well (thanks to demand), but to a much lesser degree.

This is what I want for Gibson. They should have a very clear identity and appeal to a broad spectrum of players.
 

grumphh

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Are the prices out of line with inflation? Again, no.
Actually the prices are totally out of line with development in manufacture of goods :)

One could also say that they are out of line with inflation, as the cost of manufacturing an electric guitar most certainly has decreased (thanks to automation) since the "golden age" - then again, that is right where "overpricing" enters the picture...

"Oh, those guitars cost us less to make, great, now let's just not tell the discerning consumers - no wait, actually let marketing make them think that we lose money... They are going to lap that up like a dog eating his own vomit...":rofl:
 

mudface

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Actually the prices are totally out of line with development in manufacture of goods :)

One could also say that they are out of line with inflation, as the cost of manufacturing an electric guitar most certainly has decreased (thanks to automation) since the "golden age" - then again, that is right where "overpricing" enters the picture...

"Oh, those guitars cost us less to make, great, now let's just not tell the discerning consumers - no wait, actually let marketing make them think that we lose money... They are going to lap that up like a dog eating his own vomit...":rofl:
Oooooh, the question no one can answer. (Unless actually CFO at the company) Good one. You sir, win the internets.

Everyone with half a brain can see that machine-carving a few bits of wood (wholesale worth appr 30 USD) and gluing them together and then spraying them with car paint must be hideously expensive.
That other developed countries can perform this task at a 3rd the price of Gibson surely is no sign of Gibson being overpriced. At all.

Are you guys really that insecure about your vanity purchases? :rofl:
I mean, everybody knows that nostalgia/legacy marketing lets manufacturers put an extra high price tag on their product, and even better, discerning consumers LOVE to show* other people how much a given product did cost, as that directly reflects on their net worth

* Hence the importance of recognized brand names and logos, how else would anyone else know that your product was way overpriced, yet you still chose to blow your cash on it?
The problem here is that you stick with just the costs of materials and car paint..... Other countries of manufacture don't have the elaborate taxes, subsidies, and stringent environmental policies to maintain. It seems you have no clue what it takes to run a massive industry. It's not just wood and paint.

The big question i have here is why do you care what other people spend their money on?

Then you make an effort to insult them for doing so.

Is this your purpose here?..... To insult Gibson buyers for buying overpriced guitars?

You sure aren't providing any proof that Gibson's are overpriced in the meantime.
 

Wrench66

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Oooooh, the question no one can answer. (Unless actually CFO at the company) Good one. You sir, win the internets.

Everyone with half a brain can see that machine-carving a few bits of wood (wholesale worth appr 30 USD) and gluing them together and then spraying them with car paint must be hideously expensive.
That other developed countries can perform this task at a 3rd the price of Gibson surely is no sign of Gibson being overpriced. At all.

Are you guys really that insecure about your vanity purchases? :rofl:
I mean, everybody knows that nostalgia/legacy marketing lets manufacturers put an extra high price tag on their product, and even better, discerning consumers LOVE to show* other people how much a given product did cost, as that directly reflects on their net worth

* Hence the importance of recognized brand names and logos, how else would anyone else know that your product was way overpriced, yet you still chose to blow your cash on it?
How much does it cost to produce a guitar in China, Japan, or Indonesia? I'll bet you don't know that either. So, if you don't know how much it actually cost to make a Gibson guitar at the Nashville plant, or the cost to produce a similar guitar in Asia, you must be pulling the "overpriced" theory of yours your right outta your ass.

I mean, as long as we are guessing, what if it cost $2,000 to make a Les Paul in Nashville and they sell it for $2,500 and it cost $150 to make one in China and they sell them for $700. Who's overpriced?
 

grumphh

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The big question i have here is why do you care what other people spend their money on?
I have written it plainly several times - i don't care what people chose to spend their money on.
If that hasn't registered with you that is not my problem.

What i do not like is trying to justify Gibsons price gauging by claiming that gibsons are somehow "better than the competition" or "more expensive to make" yadda yadda yadda.

Gibson is a brand, and that is what makes the price.
This price is far higher than other guitars made with the same materials, solely because of the brand name.
That is "overpriced" in my book, and is the answer to the question in the thread title.

People "act as if gibsons ware overpriced" because they are.
 


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