What is the actual height for “as low as you can go without buzz?”

[DaveSG]

NEVER EVER take advice on string action from people who tell you that neck angle is somehow involved in getting low action.
NEVER!
People who say that have conclusively proven that they have no idea of the geometry involved.

(The entire frigging point of being able to raise or lower the bridge is to compensate for neck angles, FFS)

You know, I've heard this mentioned plenty of times over the year, and I'm always thinking ... 'what??' Like, if a guitar has a flatter neck angle, then it just means that the bridge is probably sitting closer to the body, likewise if you have a larger neck angle, the bridge is higher, etc etc. How that would have anything to do with action height makes no sense.

I'm guessing that since string action is a 'feel' thing, and neck angle tends to also be in the realm of playing 'feel', people just naturally equate the two? Never made sense to me.

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

You know, I've heard this mentioned plenty of times over the year, and I'm always thinking ... 'what??' Like, if a guitar has a flatter neck angle, then it just means that the bridge is probably sitting closer to the body, likewise if you have a larger neck angle, the bridge is higher, etc etc. How that would have anything to do with action height makes no sense.

I'm guessing that since string action is a 'feel' thing, and neck angle tends to also be in the realm of playing 'feel', people just naturally equate the two? Never made sense to me.

First time i heard of this neck angle crap was in relation to Strats where people claimed that shimming the necks was both beneficial to tone and action height.

Tone, i am not to sure about (different discussion), but a badly seated/angled strat neck could potentially make the strings go out of a strat bridges adjustment range, so in that case it actually makes sense to take neck angle/shimming into account.

On Gibsons, not so much - the bridge adjustment seems to be wide enough to accommodate a fairly wide range of neck angles

My guess is that some rather lesser informed people have taken the neck angle bit, which is definitely relevant to strats, and somehow transferred it to Gibsons, without ever thinking about it... Internet in a nutshell

 

[Injector]

NEVER EVER take advice on string action from people who tell you that neck angle is somehow involved in getting low action.
NEVER!
People who say that have conclusively proven that they have no idea of the geometry involved.

(The entire frigging point of being able to raise or lower the bridge is to compensate for neck angles, FFS)

As for me, i set my action by bending strings ~three half tones up somewhere around the 14 - 17 th frets and making sure that they do not choke out on the fret above at max bend range.
Doing this i never ever get close to those absurdly low action height figures some here have on their guitars, so i hardly ever get buzzing because my action ends up moderately highish with this method.

But i have found (when lowering action just for experiments sake) that a lot of unplugged buzzing does not translate through the pickups, so i guess as long as you can't hear buzzing when playing amplified action really is just a matter of preference...

Often you need to shim a Fender in order to get low action. So yeah, neck angle can come into it. Otherwise you'll have nosedived saddles that look odd and with grub screws sticking out which dig into your hand....

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

Often you need to shim a Fender in order to get low action. So yeah, neck angle can come into it. Otherwise you'll have nosedived saddles that look odd and with grub screws sticking out which dig into your hand....

You did read the post right above yours???

 

[CB91710]

NEVER EVER take advice on string action from people who tell you that neck angle is somehow involved in getting low action.
NEVER!
People who say that have conclusively proven that they have no idea of the geometry involved.

(The entire frigging point of being able to raise or lower the bridge is to compensate for neck angles, FFS)

As for me, i set my action by bending strings ~three half tones up somewhere around the 14 - 17 th frets and making sure that they do not choke out on the fret above at max bend range.
Doing this i never ever get close to those absurdly low action height figures some here have on their guitars, so i hardly ever get buzzing because my action ends up moderately highish with this method.

But i have found (when lowering action just for experiments sake) that a lot of unplugged buzzing does not translate through the pickups, so i guess as long as you can't hear buzzing when playing amplified action really is just a matter of preference...

Bingo.
Same for relief.

Neck angle impacts string action.
Neck angle is not the primary way to adjust string action.
Neck relief impacts string action.
Neck relief is not the primary way to adjust string action.

Fenders generally have very little adjustment available on the saddles, so sometimes a neck angle adjustment is needed to get the action AND the saddles where you want them.
Maybe the saddles are maxed out and you still have buzz and the action is too low... shim the neck forward.
Maybe you're getting sitar from the saddles due to the low break angle, or the screws poking up through the saddles irritate your hand, or the saddles are decked and your action is STILL too high... shim the neck back.

 

[rockstar232007]

First time i heard of this neck angle crap was in relation to Strats where people claimed that shimming the necks was both beneficial to tone and action height.

Tone, i am not to sure about (different discussion), but a badly seated/angled strat neck could potentially make the strings go out of a strat bridges adjustment range, so in that case it actually makes sense to take neck angle/shimming into account.

On Gibsons, not so much - the bridge adjustment seems to be wide enough to accommodate a fairly wide range of neck angles

My guess is that some rather lesser informed people have taken the neck angle bit, which is definitely relevant to strats, and somehow transferred it to Gibsons, without ever thinking about it... Internet in a nutshell

Actually, the angle of the neck has a LOT to do with action.

If the angle is too shallow/pitched, then the strings won't be aligned with the frets, meaning that no matter the amount of relief in the neck, reaching optimal action could be difficult.

Now, were talking on the extreme side. A difference between 3-3.5, or even 4 degrees isn't going to be that big a deal.

 

[mark gill]

hi, I thought I would add my 2 cents worth,, set the action the way YOU like the guitar to play. if you cannot hear buzzing when amplified then there is no problem. if you have notes that choke when you bend them then you have a problem. string buzzing is more an acoustic guitar players issue . Go by feel, not by measurements, use the force.

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

Actually, the angle of the neck has a LOT to do with action.

If the angle is too shallow/pitched, then the strings won't be aligned with the frets, meaning that no matter the amount of relief in the neck, reaching optimal action could be difficult.

Now, were talking on the extreme side. A difference between 3-3.5, or even 4 degrees isn't going to be that big a deal.

You really haven't got the foggiest, have you?

Take a bit of time to think about it - or rather, take a long time to think about it.
Hard. Long and hard. And yes, it is the thinking part i am speaking about.

Think long and hard about what happens to the strings in relation to the fretboard if you adjust the height of the bridge...
Try it, you might be surprised

 

[Injector]

You did read the post right above yours???

Yeah, I quoted it...and disagreed with it.

 

[Musha Ring]

I haven't measured relief - almost use none, just a hair over, but did a feeler gauge test of action at 12th fret. High E is .025-.027 and low E is .050-.052, so a hair under 2/64th on treble and a hair over 3/64 on bass side.

That is extremely low action. Do you have a capo on the first fret when measuring it?

 

[rockstar232007]

You really haven't got the foggiest, have you?

Take a bit of time to think about it - or rather, take a long time to think about it.
Hard. Long and hard. And yes, it is the thinking part i am speaking about.

Think long and hard about what happens to the strings in relation to the fretboard if you adjust the height of the bridge...
Try it, you might be surprised

I have been thinking "long and hard" about it...for the past 35 years.

Simple physics.

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

I have been thinking "long and hard" about it...for the past 35 years.

Simple physics.

You are one of the people that no one should take advice from

Such a massive post count generated over the years, and yet somehow you have failed to listen to others and grasp even simple concepts.

...one of the problems with the net is that people with high postcounts for some reason are considered "more knowledgeable" on forums, because one naturally assumes that by being on forums for so long they will have learned something.
This does however not have to be the case, as there is a certain subgroup of people that clearly prefers posting rather than learning from others posts

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

Yeah, I quoted it...and disagreed with it.

No, the post right above yours. I think i wrote that out quite clearly.

Not the post you quoted, which is several posts above yours, but the one that chronologically is placed right before yours. As in right above yours.

Try reading that.

Or just disagree because you feel like disagreeing. That's cool too, after all we are on the internet

 

[rockstar232007]

You are one of the people that no one should take advice from

Such a massive post count generated over the years, and yet somehow you have failed to listen to others and grasp even simple concepts.

...one of the problems with the net is that people with high postcounts for some reason are considered "more knowledgeable" on forums, because one naturally assumes that by being on forums for so long they will have learned something.
This does however not have to be the case, as there is a certain subgroup of people that clearly prefers posting rather than learning from others posts

I've spent pretty much my whole life studying pretty much every aspect of the guitar (specifically Les Pauls). I think I know a thing, or two about how they work?

Btw:

I've handled many a guitar with severe neck angle issues, and they were virtually unplayable.

So, what else have you got?

 

[msalama]

So, what else have you got?

Ignore the guy, he's just a troll with an ego problem.

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

I've spent pretty much my whole life studying pretty much every aspect of the guitar (specifically Les Pauls). I think I know a thing, or two about how they work?

Btw:

I've handled many a guitar with severe neck angle issues, and they were virtually unplayable.

So, what else have you got?

What you are showing has nothing to do with action but is a guitar that is built fundamentally wrong.
Also, you conveniently omitted an ADJUSTABLE bridge

Your upper sketch looks a lot like LP's built in the very first year of production. Which for some unfathomable reason were simply built wrong.
They had no neck angle (lor hardly any) and therefore the bridge couldn't be adjusted to the correct height resulting in having to let the strings run under the tailpiece rather than over.

No LP since 1952 has been built with a neck angle that prevented correct adjustment of the bridge height, although some Norlins have neck angles that necessitate the bridge to be adjusted pretty high above the body.

However, neck angle only has an effect on whether the neck is attached so that the strings are within the range of bridge adjustment, but in no way determines what action height you can get from a given neck. That is still only dependent on fretwork, straightness, string gauge and playing choices...

 

[msalama]

You really love talking crap, don't you Grump?

Many players will never need to adjust neck angle. But there are circumstances in which the adjustment becomes necessary. Mainly, the angle at which the neck is seated in the neck pocket affects how low the bridge must be set in order to achieve optimal playing action (string height above the fingerboard).

If the neck angle is too shallow, the action can still be too high even after setting the bridge (or bridge saddles) as low as possible. Perhaps the original angle wasn’t ideally set in the first place. More often, replacing the bridge or combining a neck and body from two different instruments can be the culprit. When replacing the bridge with a shorter one or a taller one, a neck angle adjustment might very well be necessary. In any case, if the string height isn’t comfortable even after a good setup, neck angle adjustment might be helpful.

How Micro-Tilt Majorly Affects Your Action

It's a simple solution that will save you a lot of headaches.

www.fender.com

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

You really love talking crap, don't you Grump?

How Micro-Tilt Majorly Affects Your Action

It's a simple solution that will save you a lot of headaches.

www.fender.com

Look bob, we are on a fansite for Gibson guitars, which means that discussing adjustments of Fenders is pretty irrelevant.
Especially since by far most Gibsons never even offer the possibility of changing the neck angle.
But in case you missed it, i actually did mention fenders and neck angles.

First time i heard of this neck angle crap was in relation to Strats where people claimed that shimming the necks was both beneficial to tone and action height.

Tone, i am not to sure about (different discussion), but a badly seated/angled strat neck could potentially make the strings go out of a strat bridges adjustment range, so in that case it actually makes sense to take neck angle/shimming into account.

On Gibsons, not so much - the bridge adjustment seems to be wide enough to accommodate a fairly wide range of neck angles

My guess is that some rather lesser informed people have taken the neck angle bit, which is definitely relevant to strats, and somehow transferred it to Gibsons, without ever thinking about it... Internet in a nutshell

And still, neck angle has nothing to do with action height and everything with making sure that the strings meet the bridge within the bridges adjustable range.
And then you use the bridge to adjust for action height...

 

[dro]

What size shoes should I buy...
Cheers

Are they for you? or your wife?

 

[dro]

I haven't measured relief - almost use none, just a hair over, but did a feeler gauge test of action at 12th fret. High E is .025-.027 and low E is .050-.052, so a hair under 2/64th on treble and a hair over 3/64 on bass side.

I had a guitar that had scary low action, so low that it made it unplayable - it was a circa 2000 Warrior Instruments custom guitar (walnut body, hog/purple heart neck, ebony fretboard). As soon as you would touch the strings with your fingers, it would be fretting the strings, w/ no buzzing or fretting out plugged in. Never played another guitar that could do that. It turned out to be a problem, so I raised the action, but it was impressive.

That sounds like one of mine.