What if some of the famous bursts had the "mapleflame mod" done?

asapmaz

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Pretty close to what I would have said. Although I would have move Strings UP a bit, neck joint glue DOWN a bit, and body wood DOWN some.
Thank you. Nice to get some validation, especially coming from a burst owner. :)
 

viking20

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Seriously , its all about being happy with what you use .....nothing else matters to me
I dont want to offend anyone , but really....some people will believe anything....

Its just so weird to me that someone actually believe that all 58/59/60-whatever model is guaranteed to be better than anything made today , they just cant be.......they are just guitars , and IMO , there is a limit to how far you can get away from a mediocre piece in quality , no matter what you do or what materials you use.....I havent played a Les Paul from those years , but I suspect that if any of them are great , like Fenders , its probably at least as much as anything else because of the countless setups some of them have had over the years.......

I did mods to my latest Les Paul recently. I wanted to make it lighter , and see how far I cold go with hardware alone. Everything was being looked at , and I used alu tailpiece , tailpiece posts and an alu bridge among other things , and also did some mods to pu base plates to take some weight off.......

Magnets where swapped as well , and I swear , at my first band practice I almost had tears in my eyes , I have never had a guitar that sounded so good , and reacted so good to the use of pots and my pedals......Used it again yesterday , and what a bummer , pure crap , no matter how I twisted the knobs on guitar and amp....
Difference was , yesterday I used one of my tube amps with a single 12 speaker. I won't tell you the make of amp , I don't want to make anyone upset , because its a well respected amp model......
Last week I used my 74 Bandmaster Reverb , with 2 10 inch EMI Legend speakers , and I was in tone heaven.... To me a guitar is just the tool used to play the real instrument which is the amp.
 

Bill Hicklin

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If the bridge made all that much difference, they wouldn't use adjustables at all. No respectable acoustic does*.... but then in an acoustic, the bridge really is a vital part of spound transmission.

*Gibson once tried putting TOMs on acoustics. The results were not good
 

bluesky636

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I've done experiments with various steel and even iron, sorry.

Even with no studs and plastic or wood beneath the bridge it will sound pretty much the same, if you think i'm joking i am not. how i know this .... long story.
but i can tell you more story, we installed a brand new bridge with plastic saddles in vintage ES-330 where one should hear more change but there wasn't, it sounded through the pickups the same as original abr.

Do you see any bridge posts in the video ? that's how i know and is really easy for anyone to do that and see how that sounds thru pickups. if that would determine vintage sound then fine, but i can tell you, it's not.
:cheers2:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA6L80l6wxA
Did a jet plane crash in your back yard just past the 1:00 minute mark? :eek:
 

Lousyatit

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Seriously , its all about being happy with what you use .....nothing else matters to me
I dont want to offend anyone , but really....some people will believe anything....

Its just so weird to me that someone actually believe that all 58/59/60-whatever model is guaranteed to be better than anything made today , they just cant be.......they are just guitars , and IMO , there is a limit to how far you can get away from a mediocre piece in quality , no matter what you do or what materials you use.....I havent played a Les Paul from those years ...
So how would you know this?
 

Mouse

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And here are the examples of TB replica played by Ed A with not only PAFs but even more importantly with vintage metal hardware parts also. Most of tone is high OD and it is with reverb on but listen esp to parts when the volume is rolled off a bit. Yes it is a tone of metal strings on metal saddles, but no harsh zing so obvious with all replicas and reissues.

This relative softness (compared to modern metal parts) of original metal hardware parts helps keeping highs lower (they absorb highs better, deeper slots/notches), and immediately mids of wood are not overwhelmed by highs of metal parts and are able to stand out more in tone. Surely higher OD increases highs but mids are still in there, strong enough and the result is tone that is not 'dentists' high speed drill' tone of modern reissues and replicas. IMO it is rather close to good Bursts, tone-wise Anyone?
Ed : ''First let me say that the iphone is just not capturing the true tone at all.... I have the volume of the amp on 8 and I am running through a Weber attenuator which was on about 7..... Still plenty loud but reduced enough so I dont blow my vintage '68 Celestions....''
 

korus

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Ed : ''First let me say that the iphone is just not capturing the true tone at all.... I have the volume of the amp on 8 and I am running through a Weber attenuator which was on about 7..... Still plenty loud but reduced enough so I dont blow my vintage '68 Celestions....''
Which states the obvious that all nuances of tone in flesh are not present in the recording but we are hearing the original tone and anyone listening to YT clips of (LP) guitars is aware of that and based on some personal experience in playing guitars and listening to YT clips can compensate for that degradation, especially those who recorded many clips of guitars and published them on YT.

My evaluation is that there is enough audio info of original tone in flesh transferred to audio part of this recording to recognize that tone of this guitar differs and in a what way it does, esp with volume on guitar rolled off a la Page. Anyone else can evaluate it exactly opposite of me. We are talking personal perceptions of the same event (Kurosawa's Rashomon), therefore that is to be expected.
 

LeftyF2003

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It is an interesting question. I would think that folks that inspect these guitars like George Gruhn would have found this while evaluating the guitar, but I suppose that some could have fallen through the cracks? I'd be curious if JB will chime in on this with his 2 cents. Not many folks have had as many of these guitars through their hands...
 

asapmaz

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It is an interesting question. I would think that folks that inspect these guitars like George Gruhn would have found this while evaluating the guitar, but I suppose that some could have fallen through the cracks? I'd be curious if JB will chime in on this with his 2 cents. Not many folks have had as many of these guitars through their hands...
Thanks. Yeah I assume most bursts in collectors' hands are probably all vintage spec. But, it'd sure be interesting to know what kind of hardware mods pro owned and toured bursts have gone through.
 

Mouse

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Which states the obvious that all nuances of tone in flesh are not present in the recording but we are hearing the original tone and anyone listening to YT clips of (LP) guitars is aware of that and based on some personal experience in playing guitars and listening to YT clips can compensate for that degradation, especially those who recorded many clips of guitars and published them on YT.

My evaluation is that there is enough audio info of original tone in flesh transferred to audio part of this recording to recognize that tone of this guitar differs and in a what way it does, esp with volume on guitar rolled off a la Page. Anyone else can evaluate it exactly opposite of me. We are talking personal perceptions of the same event (Kurosawa's Rashomon), therefore that is to be expected.
yes that's true, but even the opposite like camera is adding something or attenuator is smothing the highs or reverb box is acting some way. lot of guys positions camera to what they want to hear but it's not in the room or camera hears that way at special position. as i perceive things, it was not loud at all, from my experience when air is pushed something in the room will resonate with sound produced at higher level. and he has a lot stuff to resonate in that room when air is pushed.

all in all i believe it's nice instrument right there, sounds very nice! familiar sound through greenbacks, they also have to say something about high spectra.

this is without attenuation, pedals etc. as it is, jtm45 at 8 volume with 2x12 100dB celestions. Lets move some air :D Eh, no special abr posts, usual modern stuff, but with olgrowth mahogany. hope you'll like it


[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofNAZ8Cz7GA[/ame]


[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V9m_sEDzJw[/ame]
 

bulletproof

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Here you go: :)

Amp 10
Pickups 9
Neck wood 8.5
Body wood 8
Neck joint glue 7
Pots 7
Abr-1 6.5
Abr-1 saddles 6
Abr-1 thumbwheels 6
Abr-1 posts 5
Strings 4
Nut 3
Tailpiece studs 2
Tailpiece 1
Tuners 1
Top Wrap / regular wrap 0.5
Pickguard 0.01
Poker chip 0.00001

Dont forget # 9.5- fingers:D
 

58burst

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Obviously it's absurd to pretend to really quantify the contributions of parts to tone, but when I restored my '58 (unfortunately when I got it it was not completely original), when I changed out the later stop bar for an original I found, the change in tone was spectacular, very much more sweet- the pot-metal alloy gibson used for the tailpieces & abr-1's is crucial to the tone IME.
 

Mouse

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No, it is SAE 1006 or 1008 steel for steel studs and steel bushings. It has almost 2 times less carbon, it is softer than today's common steel. That is why all replica steel studs sound thinner/brightere than vintage ones. And even chrome late 60s steel studs are already too hard.

Try vintage studs from those vintage Gibsons in a LP you've made. You'll hear it in 20 secs - more mids and bigger lows. Trying only studs will not diminish value of vintage guitar.

I'm not saying it is certain 100% and I am not saying it is the same steel but Throbak wrote steel in PAFs was 1006 or 1008 for screws IIRC. Seems logical common steel 60 years ago was softer - closer to iron - than today. Cause for everything one uses metal/steel to have it long lasting, therefore having harder metal is an advancement, improvement.

Except for musical instruments. It changes/raises resonant peak -> tighter lows, less mids, thinner/stronger highs -> covers, hides lows and mids of the wood. Try vintage studs in your LP.
-Revision-
These days man has to do everything himself and not to trust shops, it seems that steel they have are commercial grade and do not vary much. so i went to industrial steel shop, they still have nice pallete of low carbon steel. i asked half or more less of carbon content than familiar 1018 i had for comparison.
Here are results 1018 vs low carbon steel, respectively, hope it will be amusing
:cheers2:

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4ebBy7KJBE[/ame]
 

asapmaz

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-Revision-
These days man has to do everything himself and not to trust shops, it seems that steel they have are commercial grade and do not vary much. so i went to industrial steel shop, they still have nice pallete of low carbon steel. i asked half or more less of carbon content than familiar 1018 i had for comparison.
Here are results 1018 vs low carbon steel, respectively, hope it will be amusing
:cheers2:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4ebBy7KJBE
Thanks for making a video, Mouse.
I clearly hear a difference.
To all those who still think little bits of hardware like the bridge posts make no difference, I guess I have nothing left to say.
 

korus

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-Revision-
These days man has to do everything himself and not to trust shops, it seems that steel they have are commercial grade and do not vary much. so i went to industrial steel shop, they still have nice pallete of low carbon steel. i asked half or more less of carbon content than familiar 1018 i had for comparison.
Here are results 1018 vs low carbon steel, respectively, hope it will be amusing
:cheers2:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4ebBy7KJBE
- another revision -

I obviously did not make myself clear, but by studs and bushings I was referring to tailpiece and the way it is attached to the body of a Les Paul and google recognizes them clearly
https://www.google.com/search?q=studs+bushings+les+paul&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrv5KT1O3SAhXqA5oKHQe2Dx8Q_AUIBigB&biw=1366&bih=628

OTOH the usual term for ABR-1 and the thin screws they are positions on body is : posts.
https://www.google.com/search?q=posts+wheels+les+paul&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivjI6d1O3SAhXjQJoKHWBdDFMQ_AUIBigB&biw=1366&bih=628#tbm=isch&q=ABR-1+posts&*

Original hardware was made with these materials :

ABR-1 body was Zamak - an alloy of zinc and aluminum.
ABR-1 saddles and intonation screws were brass.
ABR-1 posts and thumb wheels were brass.
Tailpiece was aluminum.
Tailpiece studs and bushings were carbon steel.

Carbon steel posts for ABR-1 vs brass posts for ABR-1 : carbon steel posts shift the tone of the guitar towards higher mids. Yes tone IS indeed a bit louder but it is more bright, and becomes harsh. It is the same with thumb wheels - carbon steel wheels are brighter than brass wheels. It is to be expected as ANY carbon steel is harder than ANY brass. And then it is used on 'modern', brighter sounding (higher mids peak) wood than originals.

Also, brass used for all the modern brass posts nowadays is harder and brighter sounding than some vintage #8 posts from Gibson '50s archtop bridge or than some older ('vintage') 6-32 screws that can be found on Ebay. The most obvious reason would be more zinc, less copper in brass to make them harder (more zinc-whitish color, less yellow when filed), but it also can be a greater amount e.g. 10% of lead in old brass ... and it would also help reduce high harmonics and make deeper tone when thrown on hard surface. Such a brass when used for saddles on ABR-1 would make a rounder tone of plain strings even with mismatched coils in PAF in bridge, let's say 80% copper, 10% zinc and 10% lead. Modern brass 'rings' when thrown on a hard surface, old brass is more like 'thump' and without 'ringing'.
 

Mouse

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- another revision -



Original hardware was made with these materials :

ABR-1 body was Zamak - an alloy of zinc and aluminum.
ABR-1 saddles and intonation screws were brass.
ABR-1 posts and thumb wheels were brass.
Tailpiece was aluminum.
Tailpiece studs and bushings were carbon steel.

Carbon steel posts for ABR-1 vs brass posts for ABR-1 : carbon steel posts shift the tone of the guitar towards higher mids. Yes tone IS indeed a bit louder but it is more bright, and becomes harsh.
On the contrary, with low carbon steel is not harsh with this guitar, it's more open, with ''springy'' feel under the strings. guitar itself has already deep low middle so it's nice match, ymmv. i like it and i'm gonna keep it.
Brass ABR posts on the other hand (old 50's and new), which is funny, sounded more like 1018 steel.


Let's check what's on my guitar

ABR-1 body was Zamak - an alloy of zinc and aluminum. yes
ABR-1 saddles and intonation screws were brass. yes
ABR-1 posts and thumb wheels were brass. no, low carbon steel, thumb wheels- yes
Tailpiece was aluminum. yes
Tailpiece studs and bushings were carbon steel. yes, low carbon steel custom machined C 0.08-0.1 (max). it's european steel/ i don't know what's american match exactly but i suppose somewhere in line with 1008 or 1010 low carbon steel.


On the brass, still any machinist can obtain any mix of brass be it more zinc, more phosphorus or led in alloy mix. they need it for fixed bearings of machines and those materials are not obsolete.
Another thing with brass (and cooper), with signal or energy waves pass sound becomes softer. This thing is evident in any cooper alloy : church bells, audio transformers, cymbals ... and even guitar frets.
 

Mark_the_Knife

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People can argue all they want about this but the bridge and the associated parts are absolutely some of the most key parts to a guitar's tone. It's where all of the pressure from the strings are focused and transferred to the wood. Speaking from first hand experience, yes the length and the material of the posts and the wheels make a huge difference.
Dave Stephens added his own 2 cents to the vintage vs. modern argument.


When these parts were first fabricated in the 1950's, how did Gibson know that brass was suitable for an ABR-1 post and thumbwheel, and that aluminum was preferred in the tailpiece? Did they use a ping test or did they choose the part based on voodoo?

There is a concept in philosophy known as intelligent design, yet in guitar making, all rules seem to go out the window because the final instrument is more important than the individual parts. To me this means that Gibson never gets it right since they do not have humbuckers that match the original PAFs or mahogany that can even compare to Honduran old growth mahogany. Thus, mankind is always doomed to reinvent the wheel, as the components keep changing due to availability and economics.

Next thing we can argue about is why food tastes worse today than 70 years ago.
 


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