weight in relation to tone?

[shtdaprdtr]

Just curious..to many, if not all purists, Lighter weight equals better tone and heavier guitars not as great tone but more sustain (maybe).
I have an interesting question I never thought of before but just stumbled upon. The Stanleyburst and Brockburst exchanged hands quite a few times. I have read in some literature as well as other places that those guitars were not the best sounding guitars. Especially the brockburst..I heard that guitar is in such great condition cause it was a bit of a tone turd.
I have read these comments about these guitars in quite a few places so it was pretty much consistent opinions and from collectors. The other thing I noticed...is that among the many guitars listed in the beauty of the burst book...these two are also some of the lightest weight Les Pauls from the 50's!

 

[RAG7890]

IMHO as a general rule all the good Les Pauls I have owned / own / played had a weight range of around 8lbs 4ozs to 9lbs 2ozs.

My "ideal" weight is 8lbs 5 - 10ozs. My best two non chambered Les Pauls weigh in at 8lbs 6ozs & 8lbs 10ozs.

However, this is not a rule only a guide. There are many great Les Pauls at well over 9lbs.

As each piece of wood is different, weight is a guide only & one part of the puzzle...............a great guitar is a sum of all parts & its construction.

As far as I am aware (based on my limited knowledge) not all Vintage Les Pauls are great guitars, as I am sure those in the know are aware.

It is hard to get a really accurate overview of a Burst simply because what owner in their right mind is going to say "my Burst sucks & I don't like the tone", especially after they have shelled out > $150,000 or so.

My 2c FWIW.

 

[janalex]

As a guitar gets lighter in weight it get thinner sounding however the honky mids become more prominent. As a guitar gets heavier it loses the mid honk and has more of a big balanced tone. You probably want something in the 8.5-9 lb range (50's LP wood) to get a nice combination of thick tones but with the mids not too scooped. However if you're a fan of honk (eg Allman) you might want to go under 8.5 lbs or if you're a fan of no honk (eg Page) you might want something heavier like over 9 lb.

Interesting fact that the average weight of 59 bursts in BOTB is just about 9 lb so thats not technically a heavy 50s LP.

 

[planks]

As a guitar gets lighter in weight it get thinner sounding

I don't agree with this. Vintage LPs and Custom Shop LPs with high quality wood (low density, lighter weight) IMO sounds fuller than for example heavier Norlins or USA LPs (rare exceptions to this can be found).

if you're a fan of no honk (eg Page) you might want something heavier like over 9 lb.

Afaik Page's #1 weighs 7.5 lbs.

Also, IMO that guitar sounds fuller in tone than certain other bursts weighing more.

 

[janalex]

Page's #1 absolutely cannot weigh 7.5 pounds. Two first hand sources have stated to me it is an average to heavy Les Paul.

Cannot compare 70's wood to 50's wood. Apples and Oranges. Amongst 50's examples, the general trend is for a guitar to sound less full as it gets lighter.

 

[upl8tr]

Really I didn't know that?
Wow that's amazing...
Funny I'd have thought it'd have been the exact opposite to what your saying..
No way, I disagree...
well actually someone once said sometime somewhere long ago to someone...
It cant be because...
Etc.


Ad-nausea...

 

[freebyrd 69]

I think it's a case by case basis. I don't think you can generalize. All of billy gibbons stage pearls weigh under 8lbs. And are chambered. Same with rossington. Don't hear any tone issues there.

 

[planks]

Page's #1 absolutely cannot weigh 7.5 pounds. Two first hand sources have stated to me it is an average to heavy Les Paul.

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/vintage-les-pauls/22836-jimmy-page-history-his-guitars-40.html#post1094008 , post #1185 , and Nigel Tufnel's tech knows his stuff.

Amongst 50's examples, the general trend is for a guitar to sound less full as it gets lighter.

Never heard of this, and as mentioned the weight of Page's #1 for example shows something different. I'm sure many other examples would as well. Still the opposite can also be the case - a heavier LP sounding better than a lighter one.

Then, many other factors besides the weight has an impact on how a guitar sounds.

 

[Red Baron]

Interesting observation shtdaprdtr.
And to add to your theory - consider the high value of late 50's Les Paul's, so talking about tonal characteristics in a negative light has the potential to devalue a guitar... in which case we're never going to hear the truth unless somebody decides to spill the beans (which they won't).

As a guitar gets lighter in weight it get thinner sounding however the honky mids become more prominent. As a guitar gets heavier it loses the mid honk and has more of a big balanced tone. You probably want something in the 8.5-9 lb range (50's LP wood) to get a nice combination of thick tones but with the mids not too scooped. However if you're a fan of honk (eg Allman) you might want to go under 8.5 lbs or if you're a fan of no honk (eg Page) you might want something heavier like over 9 lb.

You've shared my thoughts exactly janalex. I've owned several mid 50's goldtops in the 8 to 8.5lb range and although they sounded great, airy and even 'honky' (and are obviously great on the back), they lacked the thick 'balanced' sound of those that weighed over 9lbs. In fact the best of mine weighed in at around 9.5lbs each and believe it or not, these heavier guitars are also the most versatile for sound variation.

 

[HOT-BRIT]

both heavy and not so heavy can sound great

 

[janalex]

I think it's a case by case basis. I don't think you can generalize. All of billy gibbons stage pearls weigh under 8lbs. And are chambered. Same with rossington. Don't hear any tone issues there.

No tone issue. They just sound honky as I would expect.

 

[janalex]

Really I didn't know that?
Wow that's amazing...
Funny I'd have thought it'd have been the exact opposite to what your saying..
No way, I disagree...
well actually someone once said sometime somewhere long ago to someone...
It cant be because...
Etc.


Ad-nausea...

I know alot of this is hear say. I hear ya. But if we're going to use internet references....

Terry McInturff said from playing Page's guitars backstage. He wasn't that focused on it but it basically answers the question as to whether or not Page's was at one extreme or another. What more do you want?

"I did not take any heed of the weight of any of the guitars...we three were sitting around and I could take measurements with calipers but I do not habitually carry a scale! The two '50's Stds did not call attention to themselves. weight-wise...it was normal for an LP of that era or I would have noticed, ie around 8.5 lbs or so."

If Page's LP actually weighted 7.5 lbs then he found the 2 lightest bursts known to man. Maybe the wood carcass itself weighs 7.5 lb...

 

[planks]

Cannot compare 70's wood to 50's wood. Apples and Oranges.

I read your statement "as a guitar gets lighter in weight it get thinner sounding" as being about the weight of guitars in general , so that's the reason why I mentioned Norlins.

Still, I don't believe your statement is a general truth for vintage LPs..

 

[michaelinokc]

both heavy and not so heavy can sound great

Amen. My Custom is very heavy and sings beautifully. Wouldn't be surprised if it's over 11 lbs.

And lest we all forget, chambering and weight reduction alter the weight of a guitar but these guitars can still have great tone. If it was so simple to equate weight to tone, Gibson would do it with everything they build, as would other manufacturers.

 

[Red Baron]

And lest we all forget, chambering and weight reduction alter the weight of a guitar but these guitars can still have great tone.

That's right, we should never confuse "different" with lesser quality... weight doesn't necessarily mean inferior quality of tone either way, but it is definitely different.

 

[Mindfrigg]

My understanding is that '50s PAFs varied greatly in winding no., coil balance, and magnet type. I would say ,mixed with weight variance, would kind of make it a crap shoot as far as finding the optimum combination of those factors in many guitars.

The two Norlins I have owned, Customs, have been around 9lbs w/ hardware. A '71 and '74. Both sounded sterling, with the right pups.
I however have only played a '57 junior which is apples and oranges, compared to Standards and Customs. Weight plus electronics make the whole package.

 

[in2madness]

Its important to also factor in the weight of the player. Jimmy Page for example weighs very little and yet he can get very heavy when he wants to.

 

[Red Baron]

Its important to also factor in the weight of the player. Jimmy Page for example weighs very little and yet he can get very heavy when he wants to.

Indeed, very important... If... he... weighs... the same as a duck,... he's made of wood

 

[Sct13]

Just for what its worth. It is my experience, (no actual bursts) that a heavier LP is a better choice for a growl kind of tone and a Lighter one for a bloomy clean sort of tone. Weight has to do with wood density, correct? and wood density would allow or disallow vibrations to travel freely thereby altering the overall sum and thusly the tone.

So if you were trying to play a smooth jazz line with a heavy LP you MIGHT think it was a lousy sounding guitar, but plug that one into a Marshall and crank it.....

And so Vise Versa for the lighter one which may have problems feeding back in a cranked Marshall, due to the resonant wood.

So the trick is the get that great all around weight that sounds great in all applications.

I tend to think that we/us or them get a little over zealous over the tone but forget exactly what kind of music is trying to be played. A clean non over driven note needs to be a reference tone to "judge" the others. Personally if the thing vibrates up both my arms its a great guitar.

 

[RevWillie]

FWIW
Tom Wittrock has probably had hundreds of '50s Les Pauls in his hands and IIRC he said the lightest mahogany-maple-Standard he's ever held was around 7 pounds 12 ounces or so, a P-90 wraptail. Almost everything else was over 8 pounds.

I'll stick my neck out with a wild-ass guess that 66% or more of 1950s mahogany/maple Les Pauls weighed between 8 pounds 10 ounces and 9 pounds 5 ounces.