Watch This Before You Spend A Quarter Million On That Burst

moreles

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I'm going to watch the video when I dig up $250K of discretionary money and need the info. But seriously -- those many posters who, on this as on many other threads, insist that concern for points of fact is somehow being picky, or who toss in hearsay or ignorant, misinformed notions as though they are facts, are really dragging down the usefulness of the whole forum. I'm sure the video was well-intended and mostly correct (which is about as far as anyone seems to get when talking about this subject) but it really should have included a serious disclaimer that it is a good-faith effort to introduce points of authentication but that it is essential to use several such references and never rely on only one because some of these points are always in contention and changing. It's a bit ridiculous and irresponsible to present something as though it's definitive when it cannot possibly be and obviously is not. For all those who think it's "good enough" well, when you're ready to put $250K on the table, you'll want to triangulate with some other, differing sources. You know, one of the coolest things about LPs from this era is the way that center seam drifts (being hand-placed), not that it's always true, because it isn't. That's part of the very nature of these guitars and how they were made. I'm really grateful to the people who are always working on this stuff -- including the guys making the video -- because even at this point, it's hard, perhaps impossible, to get everything right.
 

eric ernest

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But seriously -- those many posters who, on this as on many other threads, insist that concern for points of fact is somehow being picky, or who toss in hearsay or ignorant, misinformed notions as though they are facts, are really dragging down the usefulness of the whole forum.
Preach it, brother... :cheers:
 

KenG

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I certainly couldn't tell a real from fake burst. However I know a suspicious website when I see one!
 

fretboarder

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Every now & then there is something special about a Guitar JJ & you're lucky you have that special one.

As a side point, just recently, my ‘59 GT Replica (with real PAF’s but no other Vintage parts) was played against a Vintage ‘57 GT in England which is owned by a well known Vintage Guitar "person". Apparently he said my Replica sounded and looked better than his original. So go figure.

Cheers, Rudi
and wheres the pics of this 59 gt rep rudzzz
 

Frozen Rat

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Someone school me on something here. I thought all the '59 bursts were accounted for and well documented. Why would anyone need to authenticate one when it has already been done? We know that so-and-so owns number 159, and if it comes up for sale, those who are in the market are aware of the provenance of number 159. Who is sending this guy in the video '59 bursts to be authenticated? If I owned a $400,000 burst I wouldn't be dropping it off at Emerald Guitars and then leaving. I'd have an armed guard drive it to Gibson for authentication and have him stay with it the entire time until I got it back in my hands. I think I can extend this to '58-'60 models. They are so valuable now that I don't see them ending up unsupervised in this gent's hands in that video. Maybe one of the '52s or '54s that are only worth 20k, maybe, but nothing so valuable as one of the bursts. What am I missing? I mean, these things get insured, right? Wouldn't whoever owned it and bought insurance have had to provide proof already? I guess I just don't buy that this fella in the video is busy authenticating original bursts. But I could be wrong.
 

Les Paul John

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I stated it earlier in this thread I think somewhere but people who own these, especially like Bonamassa who own more than one, laugh at these online forum threads. That is a true fact it has been stated as such. Bernie Marsden has stated similarly.

You won't find a vintage original burst the same from one to the next. You find logos off center, nut different thicknesses, truss rod cover higher up on some, arch tops different heights or shaped slightly differently one to the next, etc.

They're hand made …. that's what happens.

The video nicely lays out the basics and it is useful.
 

eric ernest

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But I could be wrong.
Perhaps.

Someone school me on something here. I thought all the '59 bursts were accounted for and well documented. Why would anyone need to authenticate one when it has already been done?
No...and a large number have no documentation. Also, there's an incalculable number of fakes. 10 to 1? 20 to 1? 30 to 1? Who knows?

What am I missing? I mean, these things get insured, right? Wouldn't whoever owned it and bought insurance have had to provide proof already?
Not necessarily. Different policies...different requirements.

I'd have an armed guard drive it to Gibson for authentication and have him stay with it the entire time until I got it back in my hands.
Yeah, well good luck with that, There is no "authentication" department at Gibson and your chances of getting an accurate assessment are random. Which is where people like me come in. I got thrust into the limelight around 2008 when I was hired by a prominent collector as an expert witness in a $5,000,000 lawsuit that featured a dozen or so fake Bursts. It was a real nightmare scenario for him. At that time, little was "publicly" discussed about the issue of fake Bursts. Mostly because people were afraid to "name names." The Ganzler drama some years later shed even more light on the problem. Today, the fake Burst market is a largely disseminated cottage industry....with details emerging regularly.

Here's a few...


https://www.abalonevintage.com/fake_1959_gibson_les_paul_standard_guitars_forgery_replica_bogus_photos.htm


I guess I just don't buy that this fella in the video is busy authenticating original bursts.
He's not. He is just pontificating store stock. (Often well known consignment Bursts, from what I can tell.)
 
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eric ernest

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You won't find a vintage original burst the same from one to the next. nut different thicknesses. They're hand made …. that's what happens.

The video nicely lays out the basics and it is useful.
Wrong. Gibson nuts of the era were molded....not hand cut, as many believe. The only difference is how much the seams were buffed off of them.

The video is NOT useful to authenticating Bursts (basic or otherwise) as it mostly concentrates on the guitar parts that are "shared" with many other models....that can be easily swapped.

If anyone thinks authenticating Bursts revolves around these common parts, they are sadly mistaken.

Parts unique to Bursts?

Notice the video didn't get into the M-69 rings.

No details about the pickguard other than the striation lines....and that information was wrong.

No backplate details?

No switchplate details?

Hummmm.....
 

Frozen Rat

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Yeah, well good luck with that, There is no "authentication" department at Gibson and your chances of getting an accurate assessment are random. Which is where people like me come in. I got thrust into the limelight around 2008 when I was hired by a prominent collector as an expert witness in a $5,000,000 lawsuit that featured a dozen or so fake Bursts. It was a real nightmare scenario for him.


I appreciate that you provide credentials to backup what you say, people often forget how important it is to do that. I must read every other week about how an
investor found out the priceless antique(s) they bought turned out fake, such as the Mesha Stele fragments (of which only a big over half of the originals were ever recovered after the Bani Hamida destroyed it) along with the associated Pentateuch discoveries in the late 1800s, or the fake Dead Sea Scrolls the Greens bought more recently (talk about having blinders on). Bursts certainly aren't as valuable, but I'd be frankly terrified to invest in one at this point. I'd definitely call you first before buying one :).
 

cmcgov

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00:45 time stamp in the video.
The host states this is a quick idea of what an authentication process looks like.

22:40 time stamp in the video.

The video host clearly states this is a start of an authentication process. In addition there are a ton of other things that he does not get into in this video.

Then the video host concludes with if in the market for a real burst to go to a professional, as this video is not a guide for buying one.


Seems very simple.

In my conclusion; it seems no where is it stated this is the specific end all be all everything authentication of the 1959 gibson les paul burst. If anything it's just a quick go over of common things most people in the realm/world know already with some history behind items with comparisons with reissue historics. I don't see any glaring purposeful misinformtion.

No reason to be up in arms. We understand this is some people's lively hood; and we respect that. But this video discussed is not a negative or horrible thing.
 
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Les Paul John

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Wrong. Gibson nuts of the era were molded....not hand cut, as many believe. The only difference is how much the seams were buffed off of them.

The video is NOT useful to authenticating Bursts (basic or otherwise) as it mostly concentrates on the guitar parts that are "shared" with many other models....that can be easily swapped.

If anyone thinks authenticating Bursts revolves around these common parts, they are sadly mistaken.

Parts unique to Bursts?

Notice the video didn't get into the M-69 rings.

No details about the pickguard other than the striation lines....and that information was wrong.

No backplate details?

No switchplate details?

Hummmm.....
Why are you doing this?
 

Les Paul John

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00:45 time stamp in the video.
The host states this is a quick idea of what an authentication process looks like.

22:40 time stamp in the video.

The video host clearly states this is a start of an authentication process. In addition there are a ton of other things that he does not get into in this video.

Then the video host concludes with if in the market for a real burst to go to a professional, as this video is not a guide for buying one.


Seems very simple.

In my conclusion; it seems no where is it stated this is the specific end all be all everything authentication of the 1959 gibson les paul burst. If anything it's just a quick go over of common things most people in the realm/world know already with some history behind items with comparisons with reissue historics. I don't see any glaring purposeful misinformtion.

No reason to be up in arms. We understand this is some people's lively hood; and we respect that. But this video discussed is not a negative or horrible thing.

At the end he states how ridiculous some people are online who have never even held one in person yet proclaim to be experts. To go along with your posted times, it's comical that people are taking that video as seriously as they have when they've probably never even sniffed an actual burst in person.

I wonder why no discussion about the fact hide glue wasn't used for the tops of these originals as it was a non-water soluble resin instead as described in the video .... uh ohhh maybe people didn't even watch it! Gosh I've started a new war!!! Hide!!!!
 

PierM

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Listing what's missing in a video, isn't proving video is wrong for what it does cover, and for its goal.
Listing what's too generic in the video, isn't also proving is wrong, for the same reasons.

Many keep missing the point of the video; it's just a promotional-informative clip, not intended to be a scientific guide to DIY vintage authentication. That would need something like 10 videos of 3 hours each, to cover every single variable and possible exceptions, and special cases. Also, people gonna spend 250K aren't gonna DIY I hope.... C'mon guys, I understand they are in the same business as some of you, but that's totally unfair play. That aggressive debunking against something never meant to be the definitive bible, but just a very easy peasy info-promo, looks an extremely sad effort of self-praise.
 

PierM

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00:45 time stamp in the video.
The host states this is a quick idea of what an authentication process looks like.

22:40 time stamp in the video.

The video host clearly states this is a start of an authentication process. In addition there are a ton of other things that he does not get into in this video.

Then the video host concludes with if in the market for a real burst to go to a professional, as this video is not a guide for buying one.


Seems very simple.

In my conclusion; it seems no where is it stated this is the specific end all be all everything authentication of the 1959 gibson les paul burst. If anything it's just a quick go over of common things most people in the realm/world know already with some history behind items with comparisons with reissue historics. I don't see any glaring purposeful misinformtion.

No reason to be up in arms. We understand this is some people's lively hood; and we respect that. But this video discussed is not a negative or horrible thing.
Amen brother.
 

eric ernest

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But this video discussed is not a negative or horrible thing.
No one is saying it is...it's misleading click bait....that has virtually no usable "Burst" content.

Today I've learned hide glue on tops it's just another marketing BS. :applause::applause:

I wonder why no discussion about the fact hide glue wasn't used for the tops of these originals as it was a non-water soluble resin instead as described in the video .... uh ohhh maybe people didn't even watch it!

This has been common public knowledge since Gil Hembree's book, "Gibson Guitars, Ted McCarty's Golden Era 1948-1966." That was printed in 2007. That's 12 years ago. I'm sure some knew this even earlier.

Many keep missing the point of the video; it's just a promotional-informative clip, not intended to be a scientific guide to DIY vintage authentication. That would need something like 10 videos of 3 hours each, to cover every single variable and possible exceptions, and special cases.
The OP's title:

Watch This Before You Spend A Quarter Million On That Burst

Apparently "he" thought the video was IMPORTANT and had GERMANE content or "he" would not have stated this.


No. I didn't miss the point. It is specifically a promo clip....click bait....I already stated that.

The fact you think it would take 30 hours of video to properly authenticate a Burst illustrates how clueless you are.

You should read more and post less in the vintage section....a lot less.
 
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PierM

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The fact you think it would take 30 hours of video to properly authenticate a Burst illustrates how clueless you are.

You should read more and post less in the vintage section....a lot less.

That was clearly a random number I throw there, but this is again proving your egotrip approach; you do love so much saying other people they have no clue, that it's the only thing you are doing these days. I wouldn't pay you even to authenticate my own ass. LOL!
 

eric ernest

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That was clearly a random number I throw there, but this is again proving your egotrip approach; you do love so much saying other people they have no clue, that it's the only thing you are doing these days. I wouldn't pay you even to authenticate my own ass. LOL!
There are MANY knowledgeable people on this board....dozens...I'm just one of the few that will confront the people who "pretend" they are.
 




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