Watch This Before You Spend A Quarter Million On That Burst

rogue3

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Yes, I do understand that. The guitar that Jimi Hendrix set on fire, on stage must be worth thousands, too. The mind set is what I was questioning. It is just the fact that we "believe" it is genuine that drives the price up. Like the Rembrandt painting that I mentioned. If a guitar was believed to be a genuine Burst there would not be a shortage of people that would love that guitar. Then, if one day someone "proved" it was fake many of the same people would not think much of that same guitar. And if one day it turned out to be genuine after all, many of the same folks would live it again.

Admittedly, I am just speculating, I can't prove it.
that is all cool...but,well,either it is...or it isn't.
To help ensure truth through accurate observation and analysis, one must record numbers and observations.

EE. is, from what i have read,a source.Benchmarks. evidence based data.details.(sorry,i use to work in a metallurgical lab as a tech.documenting the smallest measurement...training was, record it for validation!)
 
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freebyrd 69

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Yeah I think he just doesn't "get it". People want to buy a "burst" because of its prestige, are they all instantly the best guitars ever made? No, but they are all a piece of history that people aspire to own. Yes when someone gets ripped off buying a fake one, well they probably talked them self into the purchase out of desire and not reason. But they will all still feel and were ripped off because what they thought they bought was a 50's burst, not a fake.
I'm not in on burst sales but I'm assuming that most sales of bursts have very little to do with the tone of the instrument and more to do with it being a burst. It's not the normal guitar market, they are special because of the limited availability and the large desire to own one.
Exactly. It’s not rocket science. The biggest difference in the bursts I’ve played is the feel. Tone wise, all you have to do is go see a player like Joe B to realize that the tone differential is not that great, and to your average concert goer, not even discernible.

I’ve had hundreds of aged guitars in my hand.....factory aged, Murphy aged, HM, you name it. NONE of them could replicate the feel of a real burst.

The blindfold challenge is often brought up. If you heard a Reissue vs a real burst blindfolded, could you pick the burst out. I’m only speaking for myself, but I could tell you that my percentage would be much higher not by listening, but by feel.
 

Adinol

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@Adinol ...the more you post, the more it looks troll like in nature. Is that a nice enough way to put it? Once you start venturing into the "overly expensive, not worth it, only for corksniffer" territory, especially in the vintage threads, you are trolling. As Yeti said, not exactly the place for it.
With all due respect, freebyrd, I am not trolling.

Let me remind you how you welcomed me to the forum:
I think Adinol just won dumb post of the year.
If my comments about what goes on the in minds of people who want to buy 1/4 million guitars is trolling then what is your "dumb post" remark?

If my my posts are off topic no one needs to reply. And if there are no replies I will have nothing to discuss any further.

And, with all due respect, I am also puzzled that you would say this my posts have no place in the vintage forum and then reply to the mention of the fake painting.

I believe that discussing he psychology of wanting to buy super expensive vintage guitars is still on topic, but if people disagree I can simply stop or find something else to talk about.

Wealthy people don't "venture into the unreasonable price range." The price is unreasonable to YOU!

I think it comes down to the definition of "unreasonable" price. I was coming from a more humble perspective that a musician is in the market for a guitar - let's even say an exceptionally good guitar. So, there are quite a few exceptionally good guitars for much less. The extra dollars are not because that Burst is even better but simply because it is the object of desire (by many that might not even really know why).

But I agree for wealthy people that will figure out how to write it off on their next tax return the price is not unreasonable. But it's from a different perspective.

So, if their pain objective was to make an investment then it was not overpriced. Their kids will be able to sell it for $5M. But if their main objective was to buy the best guitar that amount of money could buy then there's still a chance they paid too much. Not every guitar (no mater how good it is) is a good match for everyone.

They get screwed because they trusted the wrong person.
True. And that person might have been a dupe, too.

I guess what I was trying to say was that there has to be an element of greed, in order for anyone to be duped.

I'm sure most people started playing the guitar because some other guitar player inspired them. It was like that for me. At that point, we want a guitar of our own. It's just a "small" desire, so that we have an instrument to play. Later we learn about this and that guitar and about vintage guitars. Now other desires are at play and they have a bit less to do with accomplishing the initial objective, which was, I want a guitar to play. Those other desires eventually start being less "innocent" or perhaps a bit greedy.

I hope I am not insulting anyone. I fall into the same category and I also have some vintage Gibson guitars. But if I'm honest my main motive to buy those guitars was more a form of greed than the need to have a specific instrument that was necessary to play the music I wanted to play.

OK, if this is all off topic just let me know.
 

rogue3

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"But if I'm honest my main motive to buy those guitars was more a form of greed than the need to have a specific instrument that was necessary to play the music I wanted to play."...@adinol.

well alrighty then!

then explore the best market in history for amazing guitars.step in brother and play.give some validation to great instruments,that don't make the top ten.
 

freebyrd 69

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With all due respect, freebyrd, I am not trolling.

Let me remind you how you welcomed me to the forum:


If my comments about what goes on the in minds of people who want to buy 1/4 million guitars is trolling then what is your "dumb post" remark?

If my my posts are off topic no one needs to reply. And if there are no replies I will have nothing to discuss any further.

And, with all due respect, I am also puzzled that you would say this my posts have no place in the vintage forum and then reply to the mention of the fake painting.

I believe that discussing he psychology of wanting to buy super expensive vintage guitars is still on topic, but if people disagree I can simply stop or find something else to talk about.


I think it comes down to the definition of "unreasonable" price. I was coming from a more humble perspective that a musician is in the market for a guitar - let's even say an exceptionally good guitar. So, there are quite a few exceptionally good guitars for much less. The extra dollars are not because that Burst is even better but simply because it is the object of desire (by many that might not even really know why).

But I agree for wealthy people that will figure out how to write it off on their next tax return the price is not unreasonable. But it's from a different perspective.

So, if their pain objective was to make an investment then it was not overpriced. Their kids will be able to sell it for $5M. But if their main objective was to buy the best guitar that amount of money could buy then there's still a chance they paid too much. Not every guitar (no mater how good it is) is a good match for everyone.


True. And that person might have been a dupe, too.

I guess what I was trying to say was that there has to be an element of greed, in order for anyone to be duped.

I'm sure most people started playing the guitar because some other guitar player inspired them. It was like that for me. At that point, we want a guitar of our own. It's just a "small" desire, so that we have an instrument to play. Later we learn about this and that guitar and about vintage guitars. Now other desires are at play and they have a bit less to do with accomplishing the initial objective, which was, I want a guitar to play. Those other desires eventually start being less "innocent" or perhaps a bit greedy.

I hope I am not insulting anyone. I fall into the same category and I also have some vintage Gibson guitars. But if I'm honest my main motive to buy those guitars was more a form of greed than the need to have a specific instrument that was necessary to play the music I wanted to play.

OK, if this is all off topic just let me know.
I think most people’s ideas grow as they do. Saying someone is greedy? Passive aggressive troll shit.

I started off wanting a big wheel. Then a bicycle. Then a motorcycle. Then I wanted to race competitively. Then do it at a high level. So at what point did I become greedy? According to your philosophy, I did, right?

I saved and bought my first L.P. in 1996. A Standard. Cost me $1800 of my hard earned $. I was gigging then. I used it as a tool to do my job. Fast forward 40 years later....I make more money than when I was in my mid 20’s. A lot more. I still earn it every day. I now spend much more on gear. I’m not askin anyone else to buy it for me, my family doesn’t go without, so....greedy? Lol. No. Now if I’m not able to send my kid to college because I spend too much on gear, THAT is greedy. Otherwise.....I think the word you are looking for is jealousy.
 

Adinol

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...Saying someone is greedy? Passive aggressive troll shit.
Can we have a normal conversation without this name calling?

Greed, like it or not, is a normal human longing for material gain. We all have greed, some of us have more some less. It is not trolling to admit that my greed was a partial motivation to buy some vintage guitars that I wanted to have and it is not trolling to say that some hypothetical guy we don't even know got duped into paying 1/4 Million for a fake Burst, partially because of his greed.

I would really appreciate if you stopped insulting me, which you have done from your first reply to my post. If you don't agree with something that I said, fine, please express it without the insults.

Also, no one called you (personally) greedy. I don't know what wheels you ride and I don't know what gear you own.

But back to what I was initially trying to say... the video is about how to spot a fake Burst, before spending 1/4 Million. What I was saying was, what's the difference if it's fake if no one knows it's fake and the buyer enjoys it? I was also saying, fake or genuine, the buyer overpaid for a guitar, if he spent 1/4 Million and his main motivation was to get the best instrument for the money.

Now I am simply expression opinions and I know others will disagree. So, if people disagree they can explain why a used production line guitar with a plastic nut is worth 1/4 Million if we don't take it's investment value into account. But to explain the differences in opinion without calling me a troll or dumb.
 

JJ Blair

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I'm definitely glad it does then. You'd be dissapointed otherwise I guess.
Actually, I would have put my money into something else. I got my '58 when it was less than the cost of a new CS. I tried buying and building a few different LPs to match that tone. Couldn't. The only thing as awesome, but in a different way, is my '60. They are very different from each other, but the '60 does something no other guitar I have does.

But I tell you what, if you want to get close, and you want to spend a lot less money, get a pre-1962 ES345. "0" is true bypass on the varitone, unlike after 1962, and it can get you some outrageous tones, that you'd be hard pressed to tel apart from a Burst.
 

sws1

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I guess what I was trying to say was that there has to be an element of greed, in order for anyone to be duped.
Has nothing to do with greed. Rather, it's ignorance about just how dangerous it is out there. Even the well-informed and cautious get screwed by people selling old guitars that are 2 steps ahead in regards to fake parts, fake repairs, fake guitars, etc etc.

Replaced parts, repairs, etc are fine provided they are disclosed and reflected in the price. If not, in the case of bursts, 10s of thousands of dollars can disappear overnight. I can assure you, "liking how the guitar sounds" becomes pretty irrelevant when you find out someone screwed you out of that money.
 

Naquat

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A point was made that there are much better videos out there on '59 Bursts. Anyone care to post one? Of course the only way I'd ever get one is from a garage sale or barn find but it does happen. A buddy of mine stumble onto a Fender Telecaster years ago. This is in the early 70's. He sees and ad in a local paper that says 1953 Fender Telecaster $125. He goes over to the sellers house and it's a 16 year old kid selling it. He got it from an old guy who had it in the closet for years and almost never played it. The kid did some yard work and garage clean up for the old dude who asked if he'd take the guitar as payment. The kid agreed and took the guitar home. Not being a musician he gave up on trying to learn after a few weeks. I met my friend about 2 years after he sold the guitar and he was not the kind to B.S. anyone. So those garage sale/barn finds do happen on occasion. So, what about those videos?
 

freebyrd 69

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Can we have a normal conversation without this name calling?

Greed, like it or not, is a normal human longing for material gain. We all have greed, some of us have more some less. It is not trolling to admit that my greed was a partial motivation to buy some vintage guitars that I wanted to have and it is not trolling to say that some hypothetical guy we don't even know got duped into paying 1/4 Million for a fake Burst, partially because of his greed.

I would really appreciate if you stopped insulting me, which you have done from your first reply to my post. If you don't agree with something that I said, fine, please express it without the insults.

Also, no one called you (personally) greedy. I don't know what wheels you ride and I don't know what gear you own.

But back to what I was initially trying to say... the video is about how to spot a fake Burst, before spending 1/4 Million. What I was saying was, what's the difference if it's fake if no one knows it's fake and the buyer enjoys it? I was also saying, fake or genuine, the buyer overpaid for a guitar, if he spent 1/4 Million and his main motivation was to get the best instrument for the money.

Now I am simply expression opinions and I know others will disagree. So, if people disagree they can explain why a used production line guitar with a plastic nut is worth 1/4 Million if we don't take it's investment value into account. But to explain the differences in opinion without calling me a troll or dumb.
greed·y
[ˈɡrēdē]
ADJECTIVE
greedier (comparative adjective) · greediest (superlative adjective)
  1. having or showing an intense and SELFISH desire for something, especially wealth or power
self·ish
[ˈselfiSH]
ADJECTIVE
  1. (of a person, action, or motive) LACKING CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
You stating that someone overpaid for something (doesn't matter what it is) is your opinion.

By definition (see capitalized words), the only way you'd be correct about someone being greedy by buying anything would be if it affected somebody else in a negative way, like the example I gave above with not being able to send your kids to college because of gear purchases. Insinuating someone is greedy for buying something they want with their money is just being jealous.....
jeal·ous
[ˈjeləs]
ADJECTIVE
  1. feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages
 

Adinol

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greed·y
[ˈɡrēdē]
ADJECTIVE
greedier (comparative adjective) · greediest (superlative adjective)
  1. having or showing an intense and SELFISH desire for something, especially wealth or power
There is more than one definition of the word "greed". I found the following one...

"Greed, or avarice, is an inordinate or insatiable longing for material gain, be it food, money, status, or power. As a secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs."

...which defines the word "greed" in the actual context I am talking about.

self·ish
[ˈselfiSH]
ADJECTIVE
  1. (of a person, action, or motive) LACKING CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
That's a definition for the word "selfish". I did not even mention that word.


You stating that someone overpaid for something (doesn't matter what it is) is your opinion.
That is precisely what I stated, that it is my opinion and I also stated that it is to be expected many others will not share that opinion.

By definition (see capitalized words), the only way you'd be correct about someone being greedy by buying anything would be if it affected somebody else in a negative way...
There is absolutely no mention in any of the definitions you quoted that it has to affect someone else in a negative way. You just made that up.

Insinuating someone is greedy for buying something they want with their money is just being jealous.....

jeal·ous
[ˈjeləs]
ADJECTIVE
  1. feeling or showing envy of someone or their achievements and advantages
Jealousy would only be part of the equation if the motivating factor for wanting to buy a Burst is because one cannot stand the thought of someone else owning one. But I was talking about the element of greed, regardless if anyone else own that same object, or not. Just a "longing for material gain,... ...an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs". I feel that I pretty much hit the textbook definition of the word "greed" in the context that I used the word.

But let's say that I accept the word jealous. It doesn't change what I was saying. We just rephrase it.

I said: for a person to be doped there has to be an element of greed.

So, instead, we could say: for a person to be doped there has to be an element of jealousy.

But my point is really just: a person can't be duped into buying a fake 1/4 Million Dollar guitar if all they want is a guitar to play music on. They have to have a desire to acquire or possess more than they actually need to play music. The cone artists will take advantage of that desire (which I call greed and you call jealousy). A sucker is born every minute, so all the con men have to do is put the bait out there and wait to see who bites.

Best/worst thread derailment in ages
I'm truly sorry if I made anyone feel that way. But I do not think that I derailed the topic. I only questioned, does it really matter if a Burst is a fake, if everyone in the world admires it and believes it's a genuine one?

However, when people start analyzing a particular word that I used I feel the need to respond to make it clear what I was trying to say.

I also feel the need to say something if anyone says that my post is dumb and that I am trolling. Who wouldn't?

It would go a long way if freebyrd just said, "Hey, sorry man. I didn't mean it that way." But no matter how much I ask, politely, to not talk to me that way, he just keeps firing at me.

As some people stated, they did agree with some of what I initially said and they also didn't agree with everything. That's totally fine by me. It's just a conversation.
 

RevWillie

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But back to what I was initially trying to say... the video is about how to spot a fake Burst, before spending 1/4 Million. What I was saying was, what's the difference if it's fake if no one knows it's fake and the buyer enjoys it? I was also saying, fake or genuine, the buyer overpaid for a guitar, if he spent 1/4 Million and his main motivation was to get the best instrument for the money.
No, IMO his main motivation was to get a REAL Burst!

I think we all have varying degrees of FOFU - Fear Of F'ing Up. Buying anything - house, car, couch, washing machine - and then finding out that you overpaid by 50% to 10,000%, constitutes F'ing Up to most of us.

No matter how nice the thing is, knowing that you massively overpaid really kills the joy of ownership. I don't know that I would ever destroy said object, but I might sell it or give it away to get rid of it.

BTW - it keeps popping up in your writing that you consider paying the price for 'Top Twenty Vintage Guitars' is unreasonable or overpaying:

"I was also saying, fake or genuine, the buyer overpaid for a guitar, if he spent 1/4 Million and..."

It's clear that despite justifying the purchase of the couple of vintage guitars you own, you think most of the guitars more expensive than yours are unjustifiable and unreasonable. There's an old saying: What's the definition of rich? Anybody who makes more than you do. Another saying, paraphrased: Strokes For Folks Are Different. The average man/woman on the streets thinks you paid very unreasonable money on each of your vintage guitars...

There's a big difference between something that you might consider to be 'The Best Guitar' and the guitar that is perfect for me - and that is for me to decide, not you, thanks.
 

freebyrd 69

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There is more than one definition of the word "greed". I found the following one...

"Greed, or avarice, is an inordinate or insatiable longing for material gain, be it food, money, status, or power. As a secular psychological concept, greed is an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs."

...which defines the word "greed" in the actual context I am talking about.

That's a definition for the word "selfish". I did not even mention that word.




That is precisely what I stated, that it is my opinion and I also stated that it is to be expected many others will not share that opinion.



There is absolutely no mention in any of the definitions you quoted that it has to affect someone else in a negative way. You just made that up.


Jealousy would only be part of the equation if the motivating factor for wanting to buy a Burst is because one cannot stand the thought of someone else owning one. But I was talking about the element of greed, regardless if anyone else own that same object, or not. Just a "longing for material gain,... ...an inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs". I feel that I pretty much hit the textbook definition of the word "greed" in the context that I used the word.

But let's say that I accept the word jealous. It doesn't change what I was saying. We just rephrase it.

I said: for a person to be doped there has to be an element of greed.

So, instead, we could say: for a person to be doped there has to be an element of jealousy.

But my point is really just: a person can't be duped into buying a fake 1/4 Million Dollar guitar if all they want is a guitar to play music on. They have to have a desire to acquire or possess more than they actually need to play music. The cone artists will take advantage of that desire (which I call greed and you call jealousy). A sucker is born every minute, so all the con men have to do is put the bait out there and wait to see who bites.


I'm truly sorry if I made anyone feel that way. But I do not think that I derailed the topic. I only questioned, does it really matter if a Burst is a fake, if everyone in the world admires it and believes it's a genuine one?

However, when people start analyzing a particular word that I used I feel the need to respond to make it clear what I was trying to say.

I also feel the need to say something if anyone says that my post is dumb and that I am trolling. Who wouldn't?

It would go a long way if freebyrd just said, "Hey, sorry man. I didn't mean it that way." But no matter how much I ask, politely, to not talk to me that way, he just keeps firing at me.

As some people stated, they did agree with some of what I initially said and they also didn't agree with everything. That's totally fine by me. It's just a conversation.
I'm done on the topic, blue blood was right, the only thing I'm sorry about is my part in the derailment. I'll precisely state that my opinion is that you come off like a passive aggressive troll, trying to debate a topic that is irrelevant to the OP. This is a guitar forum, not a psychology forum. Again OP, sorry for participating in the derailment. I got sucked in by Freud here. LOL
 

aww167

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I've read this thread with great interest, grateful for all the information made available by the many very knowledgeable and helpful folks who post here. I'm certainly not qualified to add anything more in that respect, but this whole subject has me constantly reflecting and questioning; it's sometimes very easy to be influenced by the enthusiasm and expertise of others, and sharing the love of great guitars and guitar playing only adds to the mix of appreciation and desire that springs from such interest and keeps the flame alive. One thing still seems resoundingly clear to me though after all is said and done; the main, and perhaps only reason any of these guitars have acquired the level of interest and mystique they have is the sound they've made in the hands of some really great players. I'm damned sure if I had the good fortune to pick one up and attempt to play it, it would most likely sound indistinguishable from any one of a thousand other instruments ie; average at best. The reason I would want to own one though, if I'm truly honest is because I'd hope it might just bestow on me a similar level of ability and talent as the players I admire and love. Happily for me, I know that isn't the truth, and if I can find any guitar that I can connect with emotionally and really get satisfaction out of playing, am I any less well off (ignoring the financial benefit, obviously) than someone else who happens to play a '59 Les Paul?
 

RAG7890

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I've read this thread with great interest, grateful for all the information made available by the many very knowledgeable and helpful folks who post here.

I'm certainly not qualified to add anything more in that respect, but this whole subject has me constantly reflecting and questioning; it's sometimes very easy to be influenced by the enthusiasm and expertise of others, and sharing the love of great guitars and guitar playing only adds to the mix of appreciation and desire that springs from such interest and keeps the flame alive.

One thing still seems resoundingly clear to me though after all is said and done; the main, and perhaps only reason any of these guitars have acquired the level of interest and mystique they have is the sound they've made in the hands of some really great players.

I'm damned sure if I had the good fortune to pick one up and attempt to play it, it would most likely sound indistinguishable from any one of a thousand other instruments ie; average at best.

The reason I would want to own one though, if I'm truly honest is because I'd hope it might just bestow on me a similar level of ability and talent as the players I admire and love.

Happily for me, I know that isn't the truth, and if I can find any guitar that I can connect with emotionally and really get satisfaction out of playing, am I any less well off (ignoring the financial benefit, obviously) than someone else who happens to play a '59 Les Paul?
Fixed........sort of. ;) :)

:cheers2:
 

PierM

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@Adinol

honestly, I think your early post, over here, was really a very interesting point of view, and also totally In Topic with the subject of the video.

I'm happy to be a contrarian, if this means not acting like a smartass, like the majority in this thread. I mean, are you guys the fricking guardians of what people can say and what not? Please, LOL!

I can't f....ng believe moderators are not preventing these people here insulting and attacking everyone, without any real reason.

Jeeeez....
 




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