Watch This Before You Spend A Quarter Million On That Burst

RAG7890

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I wish they didn't, but they do. Not each and every one, but in general, there's no comparison. Doug and Pat videos don't do it justice. As long as I have a vintage pickup, I've been able to match tones on '50s Teles with new builds. Haven't matched yet on Strats, but maybe with a vintage harness, I could. Dunno. But with Les Pauls, I've done the Custom Shop with real PAFs, I've done historic makeover with real PAFs, I've done the custom old wood, correct build with all '59 parts and vintage fretboard, and while they are all really good guitars, none of them do that thing my Burst does.

It's very inconvenient, but it's a fact. That thing comes alive in a way nothing else does.
Every now & then there is something special about a Guitar JJ & you're lucky you have that special one.

As a side point, just recently, my ‘59 GT Replica (with real PAF’s but no other Vintage parts) was played against a Vintage ‘57 GT in England which is owned by a well known Vintage Guitar "person". Apparently he said my Replica sounded and looked better than his original. So go figure.

Cheers, Rudi
 

Adinol

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Does it really matter if a Burst is real or fake, if you like it and if you can't tell the difference without proper authentication?

Let's say a guy spends 1/4 million on a Burst that he thinks is real and he loves it. He thinks is was a good price to pay (obviously, because he did pay it). One day someone points out all the details that no one can dispute the guitar is a fake. Now he hates it and thinks he overpaid. The guitar didn't change. One day the 1/4 million was a good price, next day it's not. But the only thing that changed is the guy's state of mind.

They made similar tests with Stradivarius violins.

They asked "experts" the question, "What makes Strads so valuable?"
"Oh, it's the sound. No other violin sounds like a Stradivarius."
"Oh, great! Because it just so happens we have one here and we also have a $500 violin and a $5,000 violin. Would you mind doing a blindfold test and tell us which one is the $5 Million Stradivarius?"
One in 3 "experts" got it right, which also happens to coincide with mathematical odds of guessing.

In the book The Forger's Spell, by Edward Dolnick, the author talks about some guy that owned a Rembrandt painting. The guy paid handsomely, because he thought it was worth the price and he loved the painting. Then he caught wind of some experts offering scientific analysis to authenticate old paintings, so he went for it. What was the reason, if he already loved the painting?

The results came back and there was some really bad news. The painting could not possibly be a real Rembrandt because it had been painted on mahogany.

The guy now hated the painting (the same painting). In fact he hated it so much he could no longer stand the sight of it. Everything looked wrong. Of course, he could not sell it, so he burned it.

After some time had passed he found out that Dutch master often painted on mahogany.

If a guitar is so good that it's worth 1/4 on a Million Dollars, pay for it, plug it in and make it rock. If a guy has to look under a microscope then they guy probably doesn't even know what he likes.
 

freebyrd 69

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Does it really matter if a Burst is real or fake, if you like it and if you can't tell the difference without proper authentication?

Let's say a guy spends 1/4 million on a Burst that he thinks is real and he loves it. He thinks is was a good price to pay (obviously, because he did pay it). One day someone points out all the details that no one can dispute the guitar is a fake. Now he hates it and thinks he overpaid. The guitar didn't change. One day the 1/4 million was a good price, next day it's not. But the only thing that changed is the guy's state of mind.

They made similar tests with Stradivarius violins.

They asked "experts" the question, "What makes Strads so valuable?"
"Oh, it's the sound. No other violin sounds like a Stradivarius."
"Oh, great! Because it just so happens we have one here and we also have a $500 violin and a $5,000 violin. Would you mind doing a blindfold test and tell us which one is the $5 Million Stradivarius?"
One in 3 "experts" got it right, which also happens to coincide with mathematical odds of guessing.

In the book The Forger's Spell, by Edward Dolnick, the author talks about some guy that owned a Rembrandt painting. The guy paid handsomely, because he thought it was worth the price and he loved the painting. Then he caught wind of some experts offering scientific analysis to authenticate old paintings, so he went for it. What was the reason, if he already loved the painting?

The results came back and there was some really bad news. The painting could not possibly be a real Rembrandt because it had been painted on mahogany.

The guy now hated the painting (the same painting). In fact he hated it so much he could no longer stand the sight of it. Everything looked wrong. Of course, he could not sell it, so he burned it.

After some time had passed he found out that Dutch master often painted on mahogany.

If a guitar is so good that it's worth 1/4 on a Million Dollars, pay for it, plug it in and make it rock. If a guy has to look under a microscope then they guy probably doesn't even know what he likes.
Well in that case, I've got a burst I can sell you.....I'll part with it for, say, eh, 75k! Seriously.....I know it's only January, but I think Adinol just won dumb post of the year.
 

rogue3

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Does it really matter if a Burst is real or fake, if you like it and if you can't tell the difference without proper authentication?
:hmm:.I think it does? Can you say *chibson*, for instance? The point being,there is a market value already attached to authenticity. Demonstrated,real. We all work within this value system.Like it or not.It does matter.
 

yeti

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Does it really matter if a Burst is real or fake, if you like it and if you can't tell the difference without proper authentication?

Let's say a guy spends 1/4 million on a Burst that he thinks is real and he loves it. He thinks is was a good price to pay (obviously, because he did pay it). One day someone points out all the details that no one can dispute the guitar is a fake. Now he hates it and thinks he overpaid. The guitar didn't change. One day the 1/4 million was a good price, next day it's not. But the only thing that changed is the guy's state of mind...
You're not going to make many friends here with a statement like that but I do agree on a certain level. However it really does matter on several levels regardless of whether you or I think it shouldn't. We just use that theoretical example as a way to rationalize for ourselves that spending that kind of money for a guitar is foolish while having no skin in the game. That equation works very differently when you do have skin in the game.
There is of course the fact that selling a fake vintage guitar is a crime and all that so it does matter, especially if you're the guy left holding the bag.
I remember the now deleted clip in which Lance Keltner lyrically waxed about his pal David's "58 Burst which was for sale and which turned out to be a long known fake. Lance didn't know and extolled the virtues of said guitar in ways that basically made the point that only a genuine Burst can do what this guitar does, blablahblah. What changed? Did the magic just vanish into thin air after the spell was broken?
No, this episode just proved that humans are very capable at self-delusion, a phenomena found everywhere.
 

vintageguitarz

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I see nowhere in the video, stating it was a specific 59 ID process. To me looks obvious he's talking very general, just using a 59 he had at the shop.

He also said in the video, at the very start, that is just a quick overview of their validation process.
I agree with you totally on those points, this video was made to be a generic over-view. The "nitpicking" was thoroughly unwarranted. I've known Tyler for a long time, and ECG is a first class Vintage operation and authority. I've been a Luthier since the late 70's, started as a Production Lead (supervisor) at Fender until the late 80's and then opened a warranty repairs and vintage restoration shop for Gibson, Rickenbacker, Guild, Fender, etc. after leaving Fender. Tyler KNOWS his stuff, far more than the "amateurs" that sound off on this forum.
 

Adinol

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...I think Adinol just won dumb post of the year.
Kindly express your differences in opinion without using insulting words, such as "dumb". We don't know each other.

Differences in opinions are often the foundation for interesting conversations. The use of insulting words and statements never are.

I could also say that my post isn't dumb, but only beyond the level of your comprehension. That would be another insult - not a conversation. But I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I could. And in that case we would be engaged in a pissing contest and - not in a conversation.

OK, now, we're even. Let's continue taking.

I've got a burst I can sell you.....I'll part with it for, say, eh, 75k!
My point was, I would personally never consider paying 1/4 million or even 75K for any guitar, for the sake of having an instrument. If I had 75k on my disposal I would invest into a Burst, if I knew 100% that it was genuine, but not because I think I would somehow be able to play better music. It would be an investment because I know I would be able to sell it, sooner or later for 1/4 Million, or whatnot. So, there is a difference between making an investment for profit and making the decision to pay extra because the instrument is worth it (not to be confused with the market value, which is like the tulip mania market in the 1600's Netherlands).

My understanding is that the genuine burst should have a plastic nut - not a bone nut. My understanding is also that most guitar players crave for a bone nut because many believe it produces better tone, sustain, whatever. Then there's also the fact that the nut must also be carved correctly. So, if we think guitars with bone nuts are somehow better, then we are not seriously considering the 1/4 Million price range for a guitar with a plastic nut. My point again, is that the price beyond a certain point has nothing to do with the instrument.

And if you (technically speaking) improve the said instrument by changing the nut to bone and properly carved, you just devalued the guitar.
 
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Adinol

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:hmm:.I think it does? Can you say *chibson*, for instance? The point being,there is a market value already attached to authenticity. Demonstrated,real. We all work within this value system.Like it or not.It does matter.
Yes, I do understand that. The guitar that Jimi Hendrix set on fire, on stage must be worth thousands, too. The mind set is what I was questioning. It is just the fact that we "believe" it is genuine that drives the price up. Like the Rembrandt painting that I mentioned. If a guitar was believed to be a genuine Burst there would not be a shortage of people that would love that guitar. Then, if one day someone "proved" it was fake many of the same people would not think much of that same guitar. And if one day it turned out to be genuine after all, many of the same folks would live it again.

Admittedly, I am just speculating, I can't prove it.
 

Adinol

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You're not going to make many friends here with a statement like that...
I don't want to make enemies and don't want to ruffle feathers. Just debating another aspect of the value of these instruments.

...but I do agree on a certain level...
Which was precisely the only point I wanted to discuss.


...However it really does matter on several levels regardless of whether you or I think it shouldn't...
And yes, I do understand how it is important on the level of not being duped. I am actually against counterfeiting and I also would never buy a Chibson or anything o that sort. The main reason being, that I do not want to encourage counterfeiters.

...I remember the now deleted clip in which Lance Keltner lyrically waxed about his pal David's "58 Burst which was for sale and which turned out to be a long known fake. Lance didn't know and extolled the virtues of said guitar in ways that basically made the point that only a genuine Burst can do what this guitar does, blablahblah. What changed? Did the magic just vanish into thin air after the spell was broken?
No, this episode just proved that humans are very capable at self-delusion, a phenomena found everywhere.
I didn't know about that. Thatn's for sharing. And, yes, it is an example of what I was trying to say.
 

freebyrd 69

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Kindly express your differences in opinion without using insulting words, such as "dumb". We don't know each other.

Differences in opinions are often the foundation for interesting conversations. The use of insulting words and statements never are.

I could also say that my post isn't dumb, but only beyond the level of your comprehension. That would be another insult - not a conversation. But I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I could. And in that case we would be engaged in a pissing contest and - not in a conversation.

OK, now, we're even. Let's continue taking.


My point was, I would personally never consider paying 1/4 million or even 75K for any guitar, for the sake of having an instrument. If I had 75k on my disposal I would invest into a Burst, if I knew 100% that it was genuine, but not because I think I would somehow be able to play better music. It would be an investment because I know I would be able to sell it, sooner or later for 1/4 Million, or whatnot. So, there is a difference between making an investment for profit and making the decision to pay extra because the instrument is worth it (not to be confused with the market value, which is like the tulip mania market in the 1600's Netherlands).

My understanding is that the genuine burst should have a plastic nut - not a bone nut. My understanding is also that most guitar players crave for a bone nut because many believe it produces better tone, sustain, whatever. Then there's also the fact that the nut must also be carved correctly. So, if we think guitars with bone nuts are somehow better, then we are not seriously considering the 1/4 Million price range for a guitar with a plastic nut. My point again, is that the price beyond a certain point has nothing to do with the instrument.

And if you (technically speaking) improve the said instrument by changing the nut to bone and properly carved, you just devalued the guitar.
I have no idea what you are going on about in the second part of your post. Sounds like you are more into psychology talk than instrument talk. There have been plenty of people duped on vintage guitar purchases that were excited to get and play the guitar. Why don’t you ask them how they felt when they discovered they got screwed. I’d venture to say none were of the “oh well, I love the guitar so who cares” attitude. Sorry, but it doesn’t take an expert psychologist to figure that out.
 

eric ernest

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Yes, I do understand that. The guitar that Jimi Hendrix set on fire, on stage must be worth thousands, too. The mind set is what I was questioning. It is just the fact that we "believe" it is genuine that drives the price up. Like the Rembrandt painting that I mentioned.
Which is exactly why those of us that see a video named "Vintage Guitar Authentication - 1959 Gibson Les Paul Standard "Burst," expect it to have germane Burst content.

Otherwise it's just click bait...
 
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yeti

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... Why don’t you ask them how they felt when they discovered they got screwed. I’d venture to say none were of the “oh well, I love the guitar so who cares” attitude. Sorry, but it doesn’t take an expert psychologist to figure that out.
fair enough , maybe not guitar collectors but take the case of the New York art collector who decided to keep his $7,000,000 fake Max Ernst painting because he thought it was one of the best he's ever seen.

at the 12:18 mark

 

Adinol

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...Sounds like you are more into psychology talk than instrument talk.
I think you are correct. It is a psychology issue but it is specifically about guitars and wanting to have specific guitars. There is a lot of psychology taking place when buying guitars because we obviously all love guitars. So, many can get priorities mixed up when making decisions, in this case, about how much to pay.

...There have been plenty of people duped on vintage guitar purchases that were excited to get and play the guitar. Why don’t you ask them how they felt when they discovered they got screwed.
There is a proverb, you can't cheat an honest man.

In this case, I think we could apply this proverb by saying, if those people were just after an instrument they liked, they considered the price and could not possibly get cheated. But in reality they wanted more than just a good instrument and they ventured into the unreasonable price range. That's the only reason they could have gotten screwed on the vintage scam.

...I’d venture to say none were of the “oh well, I love the guitar so who cares” attitude.
You are correct and I believe we all know that. But it is exactly what I was saying. Those people were not looking for an instrument to play. They were looking for something specific. They are tricking themselves into thinking that it is THAT MUCH better than some other guitar they might like for other reasons. So, they love the guitar until they find out it is not genuine.

That's like finding out that you were adopted. If your parents were always good to you and gave you plenty of love, it doesn't matter they are not your biological parents. Do you love them less if they turn out to be "fake". And do you then go out to look for your "genuine" parents, convinced that they must be better.

...Sorry, but it doesn’t take an expert psychologist to figure that out.
Not at all. But it does take some debating to figure out what mechanisms are at play.
 

eric ernest

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But in reality they wanted more than just a good instrument and they ventured into the unreasonable price range. That's the only reason they could have gotten screwed on the vintage scam.
Wealthy people don't "venture into the unreasonable price range." The price is unreasonable to YOU!

They get screwed because they trust the wrong person.
 
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freebyrd 69

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^^^^
All valid observations and opinions, some of which I share but IMHO not well suited for a vintage guitar forum.
Wealthy people don't "venture into the unreasonable price range." The price is unreasonable to YOU!

They get screwed because they trusted the wrong person.
This, and this!

@Adinol ...the more you post, the more it looks troll like in nature. Is that a nice enough way to put it? Once you start venturing into the "overly expensive, not worth it, only for corksniffer" territory, especially in the vintage threads, you are trolling. As Yeti said, not exactly the place for it.
 

freebyrd 69

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fair enough , maybe not guitar collectors but take the case of the New York art collector who decided to keep his $7,000,000 fake Max Ernst painting because he thought it was one of the best he's ever seen.

at the 12:18 mark

What other choice did he have?
 

yeti

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What other choice did he have?
I assume that he bought the painting through a reputable dealer so he could ask for his money back for starters. I'm sure he has competent legal counsel to explain to him exactly what his options are to recover his loss but he chose not to. Wealth apparently can afford you the ability to look beyond the price and how it's affected by authenticity or lack thereof. The painting appears to be worth the price of a real one to him, who's to say there isn't an owner of a fake Burst out there feeling the same way.
 

freebyrd 69

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I assume that he bought the painting through a reputable dealer so he could ask for his money back for starters. I'm sure he has competent legal counsel to explain to him exactly what his options are to recover his loss but he chose not to. Wealth apparently can afford you the ability to look beyond the price and how it's affected by authenticity or lack thereof. The painting appears to be worth the price of a real one to him, who's to say there isn't an owner of a fake Burst out there feeling the same way.
Assume is a dangerous word. As far as the last part, you can file that under “anything is possible”, but that is pretty damn far fetched.
 

WhiteEpiLP

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Yeah I think he just doesn't "get it". People want to buy a "burst" because of its prestige, are they all instantly the best guitars ever made? No, but they are all a piece of history that people aspire to own. Yes when someone gets ripped off buying a fake one, well they probably talked them self into the purchase out of desire and not reason. But they will all still feel and were ripped off because what they thought they bought was a 50's burst, not a fake.
I'm not in on burst sales but I'm assuming that most sales of bursts have very little to do with the tone of the instrument and more to do with it being a burst. It's not the normal guitar market, they are special because of the limited availability and the large desire to own one.
 




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