Want Less Inequality? Stop Subsidizing Schools And Universities

[Thumpalumpacus]

I personally wish we'd fund the education system here with a sales tax or something other than a property tax. The fact that they can take your home if you're unable to pay the taxes... And this happens... Really strikes me as unfair.

I know a number of older people that have basically been forced to sell the home they'd lived in for many years because the tax burden became too great.

It seems especially awful since the dropout rate in the Houston ISD is somewhere around 22%. That doesn't seem like a very good return on our tax "investment" to me.

I agree that both systems (taxation and education) need revamping, and I don't pretend to have the answers in either case -- only my own opinions. However, I was simply pointing out to LPSGME that we parents do pay not only for the education of our children, but often for the education of children not our own, because it is to the larger benefit of society to do so.

 

[LPSGME]

I agree that both systems (taxation and education) need revamping, and I don't pretend to have the answers in either case -- only my own opinions. However, I was simply pointing out to LPSGME that we parents do pay not only for the education of our children, but often for the education of children not our own, because it is to the larger benefit of society to do so.

But Thump, I just don't see that as the case (that parents pay enough to cover even one child, never mind several).

I don't know where the NY Times got $14k/child - especially if a city like Newark is at $23k. Most rural communities in the NY metro and up-state areas (where there are sometimes only homes and few businesses) are easily around $25k.

What parents pay $25k/child for school taxes? Maybe if you have a 2 million dollar home. Otherwise I'm thinking the average is from $5 - $8k.

But there is just no rational or moral basis that I can see that allows for a society to demand that amount from people whose incomes are at not much more or maybe even less.

I'm also pretty sure that no child I helped to educate is going to help me in return (without charging me) should I ever need any help.

 

[LPSGME]

Societies pay for children's education because they understand it is good for all of us not just the individual themselves.

I agree that parents need to value education but my well being relies on the younger generation running the world I live in one day even though personally I have no offspring - so I am happy to pay for this.

But society does not pay for it. What society does is make those, who have chosen to put their money into their homes, pay for it.

Why should the general public be allowed to vote to use some people's private property as collateral to pay public debt costs, such as building a new school, without putting up their property in equal amount?

 

[geochem1st]

But society does not pay for it. What society does is make those, who have chosen to put their money into their homes, pay for it.

Most people live in houses... even those that rent those homes, pay the property taxes through the rent. Even those that live in apartment buildings pay into the system. So unless you are living in a cave, everyone pays into the system.

Why should the general public be allowed to vote to use some people's private property as collateral to pay public debt costs, such as building a new school, without putting up their property in equal amount?

In my experience, schools are built through the issuing of bonds.

Maybe you could elaborate on what you mean by the "general public be allowed to vote to use some people's private property as collateral to pay public debt costs".

 

[River]

Most people live in houses... even those that rent those homes, pay the property taxes through the rent. Even those that live in apartment buildings pay into the system. So unless you are living in a cave, everyone pays into the system.

Even the guys who live in caves, if they come into town for supplies, are paying property taxes. Ask me how I know this.

 

[geochem1st]

Even the guys who live in caves, if they come into town for supplies, are paying property taxes. Ask me how I know this.

You've lived in a cave?

 

[Skintaster]

Thank you.

Everyone pays property taxes, indirectly or otherwise. If they didn't, a can of V8 at 7-11 would be $1.69 instead of $1.79.

Funny how the same people who fight tax increases on businesses because they'll just be passed on to consumers doesn't see this. They're just whining about their last property tax bill on the home they own.

It's called counting your blessings, folks.

Yes, everybody pays property taxes, it's just that some of us pay a lot more than others. My house is less than 700 square feet, was built in 1940, and up until recently, was in a neighborhood that could be called "developing" if one was being charitable.

My house is currently valued at over $200,000 by the tax accessors office. I bought it a little over a decade ago for a quarter of that. If I was on a fixed income, and hadn't started making a little better money, I'd have lost my house a few years ago.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't fund our schools through taxes, or through property taxes even... I'm arguing that it's a ridiculous situation to fund them almost entirely through property taxes which go up every year.

There is no way I could sell my house for what it's accessed (For tax purposes) at. I have no children. I live in a city where apparently one in five kids drop out of school.

I'd prefer to see us fund our schools through some sort of consumption tax, and they need to be run better. That's all. I'm not some grinch that thinks we should punish kids for their parents ability (Or non ability) to pay directly for their education. I'm just saying that the way things are now doesn't strike me as very fair, and it seems like a terrible return on the taxpayers investment in our shared future.

 

[Skintaster]

Yes, renters pay property taxes. But this argument that all renters assume a "fair share" of the tax burden is flawed in my opinion. It sort of depends on:

A. How many children they have in school.

B. How expensive their rent is. Their are low income apartments a few blocks from my home. Some of the apartments are larger than my house. Me and my wife are soley responsible for an enormous tax bill based on the inflated value of our house. A family paying say, $800 a month in rent, with four children, is not being taxed anywhere as heavily as us.

I'm not really complaining about being taxed, just saying that the argument that everyone contributes in the same way is flawed.

Frankly, I'd rather that we continue to be taxed in this way if it means producing a more educated populous in the future... But that's not the results I'm seeing.

 

[Skintaster]

I agree that both systems (taxation and education) need revamping, and I don't pretend to have the answers in either case -- only my own opinions. However, I was simply pointing out to LPSGME that we parents do pay not only for the education of our children, but often for the education of children not our own, because it is to the larger benefit of society to do so.

I agree with that. My biggest problem with the way things are, is the erosion in the quality of education kids are getting, and what I see as a never ending ramping up of squeezing property owners.

 

[geochem1st]

Yes, everybody pays property taxes, it's just that some of us pay a lot more than others. My house is less than 700 square feet, was built in 1940, and up until recently, was in a neighborhood that could be called "developing" if one was being charitable.

My house is currently valued at over $200,000 by the tax accessors office. I bought it a little over a decade ago for a quarter of that. If I was on a fixed income, and hadn't started making a little better money, I'd have lost my house a few years ago.

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't fund our schools through taxes, or through property taxes even... I'm arguing that it's a ridiculous situation to fund them almost entirely through property taxes which go up every year.

There is no way I could sell my house for what it's accessed (For tax purposes) at. I have no children. I live in a city where apparently one in five kids drop out of school.

I'd prefer to see us fund our schools through some sort of consumption tax, and they need to be run better. That's all. I'm not some grinch that thinks we should punish kids for their parents ability (Or non ability) to pay directly for their education. I'm just saying that the way things are now doesn't strike me as very fair, and it seems like a terrible return on the taxpayers investment in our shared future.

The last few years have been a severe abomination. Real estate which normally appreciates at the rate of a few percent a year (for decades!) sky rocketed due to speculation.

The market has since crashed. I would suggest having a new appraisal on your home. You may have a case to lower your taxes.

 

[Skintaster]

The last few years have been a severe abomination. Real estate which normally appreciates at the rate of a few percent a year (for decades!) sky rocketed due to speculation.

The market has since crashed. I would suggest having a new appraisal on your home. You may have a case to lower your taxes.

Up until right before the crash, I worked for a tax office that specialized in doing property tax protests. The appraisals are so out of control in Houston, that it's become the norm for people to either protest themselves every year, or pay a company to do that.

The current system here is a joke.

I have appraisals done every year on my house. Generally it doesn't help much. All the appraisal district has to do is find a new, much more luxurious property within four or five blocks of you to "prove" an improvement that benefits your property. It's ridiculous.

Houston is a good place to live in many ways. The over all cost of living is lower, but property owners feel an increased squeeze every year, and the largest reason is funding our (Badly run) schools.

I'm lucky enough to (For now) be able to handle it. Sadly, the nice middle aged couple that had lived across from my place for 30 years, couldn't, and they moved to a small town with lower property taxes. That kind of thing happens a LOT here... The joke is that you never "really" own your house.

I happen to think that we should be funneling MORE $$$ into education, I just think the whole educational system here needs a complete ground up revision.

 

[VastHorizon]

Canada has spent fortunes on education, schools, and universities during the last few decades, as has the U.S. and other Western countries. So how is it that 50% of its population are virtually “illiterate?” And how is it that 19-year-olds can get into some of the better universities and not know either how to study or be motivated?

I would like to see how he arrived at this.

The point here is, without a strong work ethic and good time management,
there's a very big chance that a student will not be able to GRADUATE from
university.

Let's face it - a post-secondary school is a type of business. You allow as much people to
come in, yet you excessively filter the ones who will make it out alive and get
their degree. You don't look at students; you look at alumni. See how you did
on your investment.

 

[PraXis]

Why public education needs to die a violent death:

The Underground History of American Education - John Taylor Gatto

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

But Thump, I just don't see that as the case (that parents pay enough to cover even one child, never mind several).

That depends on the value of the property being taxed, don't you think? Simply because your property taxes may not cover your children's education doesn't mean that's the case across the board. Yes, that means those with mansions pay more into the educational system.

I don't know where the NY Times got $14k/child - especially if a city like Newark is at $23k. Most rural communities in the NY metro and up-state areas (where there are sometimes only homes and few businesses) are easily around $25k.

With all due respect, I'll await your sources on this point before I agree to it. And here, if you don't agree with the Times, let's look at some other sources:

Vermont is 1st in this table, which is adjusted for regional cost differences:

The US Census Bureau has NY pegged at $18,000 per student (unadjusted), which, while $4,000 over the NYT, is still $7,000 below what you're saying. Also, you'll notice in looking over the USCB data that the national average is just over $6,000, so staking policy decisions on one extreme of the data stream would seem to be uncalled-for.

What parents pay $25k/child for school taxes? Maybe if you have a 2 million dollar home. Otherwise I'm thinking the average is from $5 - $8k.

As shown above, none need to pay that much, because you're overestimating the cost per year by 40%. Also, out here in SoCal a $2 mil home is not uncommon, and even in armpits like Oxnard the median home valuation is $435,000. This yields about $2,000 in revenue for the state, which is about 33% of the annual cost to school one student.

This doesn't take into account that schools have other sources of funding, too.

But there is just no rational or moral basis that I can see that allows for a society to demand that amount from people whose incomes are at not much more or maybe even less.

The fact is that governments are running deficits. But if one solution you see is to eliminate public education, count me out. As many flaws as the current system has, eliminating it will only fix one thing: the financial problem.

Of course, that money will soon be spent elsewhere, I can promise you: law enforcement, the prison system, and paying for the trade deficits incurred when we import manufactured goods from elsewhere and export Happy Meals.

I'm also pretty sure that no child I helped to educate is going to help me in return (without charging me) should I ever need any help.

Really? You'll never be in an accident and require emergency medical care? That is taught in public colleges. You'll never require the services of a police officer? LEO candidates here in California are required to have a high school diploma at the minimum, and with good reason. Also, I hope your house doesn't burn down ... or your car break down ... or an earthquke level your home ... all of these things will see you helped by people who you have helped to educate. In line with your prinicples, will you tell the firefighters to let your house burn?

Sorry. No man is an island. We all benefit from an educated population in so many myriad manners that I'm surprised to have to point some of them out. Perhaps you prefer to go back to the days of "every man for himself." Myself, I prefer to help others knowing that if I need help I will have a fair call for it. We have different views of things. But don't pretend for a moment you can live in your accustomed life-style without the aid of many many people you don't know who benefitted from a public education.

 

[KSG_Standard]

I don't think property taxes as a means of funding schools is fair or equitable. Wealthy people's neighborhoods or areas with refineries or other large commercial operations generate higher property taxes so the schools funded by those areas are typically better staffed, have better equipment, newer facilities, etc...this type of funding provides for inequality of education normally. A sales tax funded system or a means of distributing the taxes among the school districts would seem more fair to me.

I would prefer school choice and competition to State run schools...attach the money to the child and let the parents decide where to send their kids...a system like that might cause schools to improve as competition usually makes things better. I'm also a proponent of performance based pay for teachers and administrators.

I believe that the society does better when kids are educated and that this is true whether or not you have kids of your own. The school systems are basically broken and kids are not getting a good education under the current structure/system and we need to fix things...this does not necessarily mean that we just throw more money at the problem. My Wife is a teacher in a public school and I hear her stories, problems and triumphs and ideas every day.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yeah, I'm not arguing that basing it solely on property taxes is a good thing. Aside from feeding disparities between districts based on property values, as you point out, it also makes for volatility in the budget base.

 

[colchar]

I would like to see how he arrived at this.

The point here is, without a strong work ethic and good time management,
there's a very big chance that a student will not be able to GRADUATE from
university.

Let's face it - a post-secondary school is a type of business. You allow as much people to
come in, yet you excessively filter the ones who will make it out alive and get
their degree. You don't look at students; you look at alumni. See how you did
on your investment.

They don't filter at the undergraduate level, only at the graduate level and then it gets right fvcking nasty at times.

 

[Seceded]

Bring back the Paddle that'll fix things.

 

[River]

You've lived in a cave?

No, but Yoshi does. Has for 15 years. Pretty nice, if primitive, digs he's got up there, too. No spousal unit, of course.

Pwozzie, what's with you and violence, anyway? You're sounding more and more like Abbie Hoffman every passing day. I'm starting to picture you like this:

But she's much better-looking than Abbie. Are you?

 

[JerseyJettfan]

Bring back the Paddle that'll fix things.

What was it the gym teacher in Beavis and Butthead said? I know "I yearn for the return to the days of corporal punishment".

The nuns in my Catholic school had everyone scared s#!tless with the wooden paddle labeled "Board of Education".