Vintage Les Paul Deluxe Mini-Humbucker output question... 14k?

Saiko

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Hey everyone, had a question about a late 60s Deluxe mini humbucker I recently purchased online. I have no reason to doubt that it is what they say it is but as I understand, vintage Les Paul Deluxe Mini-humbuckers generally are wound in the upper 6k to lower 7k range.

This one I purchased has a reading of 14k and I am wondering if that is something that happened often back in the day or rarely.

I love the sound of the pickup and it complements the P90 in the neck of my Les Paul special very well, it's just way hotter than I would expect this pickup to be. I should add that the seller disclosed the pickup reading before I purchased it so it was not a surprise.

Thoughts?





 
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cooljuk

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She's not a virgin.



DCR doesn't equate to output, though.

There's not physically enough room on those little bobbins to practically get a reading that high with AWG 42 wire. Most likely wound with AWG 43. Perhaps at the time the cover was removed.
 

Saiko

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She's not a virgin.



DCR doesn't equate to output, though.

There's not physically enough room on those little bobbins to practically get a reading that high with AWG 42 wire. Most likely wound with AWG 43. Perhaps at the time the cover was removed.
Interesting... I assumed it wasn't stock or was some kind of factory fluke. I specifically purchased it because of the higher output as a curiosity. So I am guessing someone didn't like the weaker pickup and had it rewound maybe. I am going to message the seller and see if they have any more info.

It sounds great whoever did it, better than most Mini's I have tried and that's coming from someone who likes minis. I wouldn't call it high output by any stretch but it is very well balanced with the neck P90 I have. (Also a curiosity, wound by Lindy Fralin with slug instead of screw polepieces)

Thanks for the expert input!
 
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cooljuk

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Just remember that DCR does not equate to output.

11,000 turns of AWG 42 wire on a mini humbucker would be about 8k Ohms.
11,000 turns of AWG 43 wire on a mini humbucker would be about 10k Ohms.
11,000 turns of AWG 44 wire on a mini humbucker would be about 12k Ohms.
...and so on.

They will all have about the same output, but the thinner wire will have more resistance to the electrons a multimeter flows through it, just like a thinner garden hose will have more resistance to water flowing through it.


Another great example is that a DiMarzio Super Distortion and a vintage PAF have roughly about the same turns of wire. The Super Distortion has a much higher DCR than a PAF, though. This is because it uses thinner wire.

So why is the output of a Super Distortion higher if not because of the higher DCR? Because of a ceramic magnet!

This totally throws people off, because those are very common and well known examples, one having a much higher DCR and higher output than the other, even though the DCR and output are hardly related to each other in that case.
 

ARandall

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Just wondering about the 11,000 turns example you gave James.

Is the inductance of wire not based on its mass??? So that if you had the same length of thinner wire it would not only read higher K but also induce less signal for the same input??
 

Saiko

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Just remember that DCR does not equate to output.

11,000 turns of AWG 42 wire on a mini humbucker would be about 8k Ohms.
11,000 turns of AWG 43 wire on a mini humbucker would be about 10k Ohms.
11,000 turns of AWG 44 wire on a mini humbucker would be about 12k Ohms.
...and so on.

They will all have about the same output, but the thinner wire will have more resistance to the electrons a multimeter flows through it, just like a thinner garden hose will have more resistance to water flowing through it.


Another great example is that a DiMarzio Super Distortion and a vintage PAF have roughly about the same turns of wire. The Super Distortion has a much higher DCR than a PAF, though. This is because it uses thinner wire.

So why is the output of a Super Distortion higher if not because of the higher DCR? Because of a ceramic magnet!

This totally throws people off, because those are very common and well known examples, one having a much higher DCR and higher output than the other, even though the DCR and output are hardly related to each other in that case.
That makes sense, thank you for the explanation!

In the initial post when I said hotter I meant the DCR so that was my mistake. This pickup does *seem* a little hotter than other vintage minis I have played but certainly nothing that one would call high output. I only say that because the neck P90 doesn't totally overpower it like one would expect with a mini in the bridge. I also have a normal Fralin +10 P90 that was in the bridge of this guitar that I tried in the neck and it wasn't overpowering but just didn't work as well as the slug P90.

I know that Lindy uses AWG 43 wire for the Alnico Pole P90s as well, this one reads around 9k.
 
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cooljuk

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One reason someone would choose to wind a pickup with a thinner wire (usually the only reason one would do that) is so they can physically fit more turns on, so based on your numbers it's certainly possible that that was the intention.

More turns will do more to give a sharper resonant peak at a lower frequency range. You'll end up with less treble and more mids, and a sharper upper peak. That can get really "vocal" sounding as that sharper peak gets lower and lower in frequency are more and more turns are added. Increasing turns will also increase output a bit, but not as much as it changes the frequency response and not nearly as much as magnet types can alter the output.
 

cooljuk

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With that AlNiCo rod pole Fralin P-90 you are talking about, I think you are talking about his hum-canceling P-90.

That's an entirely different design and can't really be compared.

Though it IS a humbucker (all "noiseless singles" or "hum canceling single coils" are humbuckers), the way the coils are oriented, stacked with the magnets, in all of those designs is in such a way where they are fighting against each other, instead of working together, like a more typical side-by-side humbucker design. Because of that, output and frequency response are often not what one would expect for the size/DCR/wire/etc.

Another factor here is that pickups with magnets for poles, rather than magnetized steel poles, can tend to be louder because the magnetic flux is very dense and focused at the strings.
 
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chasenblues

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I should add that the seller disclosed the pickup reading before I purchased it so it was not a surprise.
Did he/the ad say whether the pickup had been worked on, Either as "repaired" or "rewound"?
 

Saiko

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Did he/the ad say whether the pickup had been worked on, Either as "repaired" or "rewound"?
They said they were not aware and given the seller I tend to believe them. Either way, I really like the result so I am keeping it.

With that AlNiCo rod pole Fralin P-90 you are talking about, I think you are talking about his hum-canceling P-90.

That's an entirely different design and can't really be compared.

Though it IS a humbucker (all "noiseless singles" or "hum canceling single coils" are humbuckers), the way the coils are oriented, stacked with the magnets, in all of those designs is in such a way where they are fighting against each other, instead of working together, like a more typical side-by-side humbucker design. Because of that, output and frequency response are often not what one would expect for the size/DCR/wire/etc.

Another factor here is that pickups with magnets for poles, rather than magnetized steel poles, can tend to be louder because the magnetic flux is very dense and focused at the strings.
Mine appears to be a single-coil version with Alnico Rods, it isn't stacked under the cover although I don't see this model on his website. It was in the guitar when I got it and I had the bridge P90 wound to match it. Lindy's shop is in my hometown so it is easy to reach him, I should ask him to take a look at the new pickup.
 
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ehb

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More turns will do more to give a sharper resonant peak at a lower frequency range. You'll end up with less treble and more mids, and a sharper upper peak. That can get really "vocal" sounding as that sharper peak gets lower and lower in frequency are more and more turns are added. Increasing turns will also increase output a bit, but not as much as it changes the frequency response and not nearly as much as magnet types can alter the output.
Great explanation, coolj... I've always preferred the less hot pickups...

I watched a vid a good while back on just magnet swaps.... Amazing the difference using the same coil assembly, same guitar, just changing magnets...

Never was a fan of DMZ SuperDs... Chainsaw-notching-concrete distortion they worked well but I never liked 'clean' with em...just didn't like the tone color and they sounded a bit thunky on the attack to me... Just my opinion...

Minis, if not overwound scorching hot, have beautiful color to me... Snappy almost like an old P90... Nice bite...
 

cooljuk

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Mine appears to be a single-coil version with Alnico Rods, it isn't stacked under the cover although I don't see this model on his website.
Ah, ok. I bet it sounds something like a Jazzmaster pickup. ...which I think are very nice!
 

chasenblues

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Either way, I really like the result so I am keeping it.
I understand that and its great that you're happy with it.

But..My Caveat emptor sensors are tingling:laugh2:

If it was advertised/sold as an unmolested vintage 60's pickup, One could assume they would or could ask more money for it. As opposed to listing it as pickup that's been repaired. Or as it seems in this case rewound to a different spec. It might not have the same value(To some) monetarily or vintage correct wise(which i could guess still equals $$) as a true "unmolested" vintage pickup.

But you're happy with it and i guess that's all that matters in the end.
 

Saiko

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I understand that and its great that you're happy with it.

But..My Caveat emptor sensors are tingling:laugh2:

If it was advertised/sold as an unmolested vintage 60's pickup, One could assume they would or could ask more money for it. As opposed to listing it as pickup that's been repaired. Or as it seems in this case rewound to a different spec. It might not have the same value(To some) monetarily or vintage correct wise(which i could guess still equals $$) as a true "unmolested" vintage pickup.

But you're happy with it and i guess that's all that matters in the end.
I definitely agree, but the listing did not state anything other than 68-69 Deluxe Mini-Humbucker in good condition, 14+k reading. That's partly why I wanted it and it was priced in a similar range as other well used minis. If anything, the argument could be made that I *should* have known based on the listing alone.

There was nothing misrepresented about the pickup as far as being original or unopened. The picture of the back is from the listing so they weren't hiding the fact that the solder had been broken previously. As far as I can tell, they dated it based on appearance and the patent sticker on the back and hooked it up to a multi-meter before putting it up for sale.

Either way, I got a discount from the listing price and I am quite happy with the pickup. Thanks for all of the awesome info guys!
 
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