Using the "sand-back" method on a veneer

[Aenima]

I'd be interested to hear from you guys who have used the sand-back method on a veneer. How thick does the veneer have to be, and how effective is it? I've seen guys do it on kit bodies with real thin veneers (with decent results), but it appears to be a very delicate process, in order to keep from sanding through. On the other hand, I've also seen it done on kit body veneers with less-than-desirable results (sanding through, or lacking a nice contrast with the grain - sometimes looking rather blotchy).

Also, I've heard that sometimes its not good to use black for the sand-back, but rather a darker mix of whatever top color you're going to use. When is that method applicable?

Any guidence you guys can offer is greatly appreciated. I'd like to start a project in which I want to use a Jazzmaster kit body, and put a nice swamp-ash type veneer on it, then use the sand-back method to make the grain/figuring as dark as possible (preferably black), and then put a nice red color on top of it.

 

[Freddy G]

Swamp ash veneer? The sand back method is for figured maple which is a closed grain wood. The softer part of the figure soaks up more stain thus retaining it when it's sanded back.

That ain't gonna happen on ash. BUT!... you can really pop the grain of ash by just using a colored pore filler or dark paint and then sand back. Ash has deep pores so it's perfect for that effect.

 

[Aenima]

That ain't gonna happen on ash. BUT!... you can really pop the grain of ash by just using a colored pore filler or dark paint and then sand back. Ash has deep pores so it's perfect for that effect.

Ok, so am I just off on terminology or semantics, because I thought that was essentially what the "sand back" method is? Put on a dark coat (stain/dye/paint/whatever) to pop/accentuate the grain/figuring, then sand it back?

I saw a video series on youtube from a guy who goes by 'Highline Guitars' in which he had a swamp ash body that he hit with a coat of black acrylic craft paint, which he sanded back, and then applied a red aniline dye. The results were really nice, and basically what I'm after. However, I'm looking to do it with a veneer, so I'm just a little unsure of how thick it needs to be so I can achieve that process without sanding through.

 

[Baylin]

Good results can be gained if you're careful.

This from my first ever build which was a kit with 0.6mm flamed maple veneer. We used a black water based ink initially and then very lightly sanded it back until the top was more of a grey colour. I believe the water raises the grain slightly giving you something to sand without just going through the veneer...

So yes you can get good results you just have make sure you work with a light touch.

One point I should make is that if you look you can see where some of the glue used locked the grain stopping it from soaking the ink up which I suppose is a downside when using very thin veneers.

 

[Freddy G]

Ok, so am I just off on terminology or semantics, because I thought that was essentially what the "sand back" method is? Put on a dark coat (stain/dye/paint/whatever) to pop/accentuate the grain/figuring, then sand it back?

I saw a video series on youtube from a guy who goes by 'Highline Guitars' in which he had a swamp ash body that he hit with a coat of black acrylic craft paint, which he sanded back, and then applied a red aniline dye. The results were really nice, and basically what I'm after. However, I'm looking to do it with a veneer, so I'm just a little unsure of how thick it needs to be so I can achieve that process without sanding through.

I wasn't trying to bust your balls. It's just that when people talk about the sand back method here (like Baylin below) they are referring to figured maple. The thing you want to do with ash will look awesome, it's just not quite the same thing as staining maple and then sanding back. In fact if you want to do it to ash veneer its much safer because you are going to paint it and then sand back. The paint will stay in the pores and completely sand away from the surface. You wont have to sand too much because unlike stain the paint will just sit on the surface of the wood....stain soaks into the fibres which is why you have to sand back more and loose more wood in the process.

Good results can be gained if you're careful.

This from my first ever build which was a kit with 0.6mm flamed maple veneer. We used a black water based ink initially and then very lightly sanded it back until the top was more of a grey colour. I believe the water raises the grain slightly giving you something to sand without just going through the veneer...

So yes you can get good results you just have make sure you work with a light touch.

One point I should make is that if you look you can see where some of the glue used locked the grain stopping it from soaking the ink up which I suppose is a downside when using very thin veneers.

Baylin, as I mentioned above the OP is talking about ash. Painting, not staining.... then simply sanding the paint off the surface and leaving paint in the pores.

 

[Skyjerk]

I wasn't trying to bust your balls. It's just that when people talk about the sand back method here (like Baylin below) they are referring to figured maple. The thing you want to do with ash will look awesome, it's just not quite the same thing as staining maple and then sanding back. In fact if you want to do it to ash veneer its much safer because you are going to paint it and then sand back. The paint will stay in the pores and completely sand away from the surface. You wont have to sand too much because unlike stain the paint will just sit on the surface of the wood....stain soaks into the fibres which is why you have to sand back more and loose more wood in the process.




Baylin, as I mentioned above the OP is talking about ash. Painting, not staining.... then simply sanding the paint off the surface and leaving paint in the pores.

Hi Freddy,

I have another ash Strat I'm building. It's got nice grain but there's not as much contrast as there was with my last one and I'm planning the same dark blue burst. I want to make sure the grain is still visible.

Sounds like your suggestion is the way to go for me as well.

What type of paint would you recommend for this?

 

[Freddy G]

Hi Freddy,

I have another ash Strat I'm building. It's got nice grain but there's not as much contrast as there was with my last one and I'm planning the same dark blue burst. I want to make sure the grain is still visible.

Sounds like your suggestion is the way to go for me as well.

What type of paint would you recommend for this?

Any paint will work. It's the application that can be done a few different ways.

The simplest way would be to paint the entire body a solid colour that you want the pores to be, then just sand all the paint off and there's your coloured pore filler...obviously that would only work if subsequent coats are not opaque. Although nitro lacquer has low solids content so it will take a lot of coats if you want to fill the pores completely. I might use a high solids 2k primer for that job.

But you can change the order in which you lay down pore filler and top coats to achieve different and striking effects. For example I'm doing an ash body in a finish I call "silver mine". I lay down a coat of sealer, then a coat of opaque black. Then a few coats of clear to lock in the black and protect it from being sanded through after the next step.
So because ash is so porous I use this to my advantage in this paint method. Even after sealer coats, black colour coat and then clear coats the pours are still sunken and not filled. Now I will spray metallic silver, and then sand it off. You just need to make sure you have enough clear over the black so you don't sand through. The metallic silver only remains in the pores...now you just keep laying on clear top coats until you can level sand and buff.

The resulting silver veins pop like crazy against the black....silver mine!

Let your imagination go!

 

[Baylin]

Awesome! Photos will be needed in the build thread when you're done!!!

 

[Aenima]

I wasn't trying to bust your balls. It's just that when people talk about the sand back method here (like Baylin below) they are referring to figured maple. The thing you want to do with ash will look awesome, it's just not quite the same thing as staining maple and then sanding back. In fact if you want to do it to ash veneer its much safer because you are going to paint it and then sand back. The paint will stay in the pores and completely sand away from the surface. You wont have to sand too much because unlike stain the paint will just sit on the surface of the wood....stain soaks into the fibres which is why you have to sand back more and loose more wood in the process.

Yup, 10-4. I didn't take it as ball-busting. I know most people use that kind of method on the figured maple stuff (especially flamed), I just wasn't sure if there was some kind of terminology or semantics I was missing. Thanks for the input.

Hi Freddy,

I have another ash Strat I'm building. It's got nice grain but there's not as much contrast as there was with my last one and I'm planning the same dark blue burst. I want to make sure the grain is still visible.

Sounds like your suggestion is the way to go for me as well.

What type of paint would you recommend for this?

Here's the video series I was reffering to above. I was wrong about the guy using ash - it's actually a red elm top, but the figuring and open-pore structure are similar to ash. He uses just a regular black acrylic craft paint for the sand back, then red aniline dye, and then a clear grain filler after. The end results are fantastic.

[ame]http://youtube.com/watch?v=UmBjCqCNlBQ[/ame]

 

[ARandall]

You could do a similar method to a TV yellow....where you do a couple of light sealer coats, then grainfill with a heavily tinted mixture. This would I'm sure pop the grain, as well as making the grainfill only tint the pores.