USDOJ: Firearm Violence 1993-2011

Roberteaux

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Last May, the US Department of Justice issued a report that was compiled as part of a study on firearms violence as it occurred between the years of 1993 and 2011. Here is a link to the study itself:

USDOJ: Firearms Violence, 1993-2011

Before I continue, I'd like to point out to the reader that the information used to collate the statistics presented within the report were produced by an unusual group of sources, and that DOJ did not rely exclusively on the FBI and their annual Uniform Crime Report but also drew source material from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, as well as myriad other sources whose information is generally held as being veracious. Thus, for the sake of this post, I will assume that the information to be found within the report is accurate enough to work with, though not entirely unassailable. But again: I have enough confidence in the data to cite it as part of this presentation, even if I do not believe what I am reading to be 100% accurate at all times.

In this post, I mean to focus mainly on the subject of the lawful use of firearms for self defense by ordinary citizens, though there are at least twenty other issues of such merit as to be worthy of discussion that might be drawn from the same report. I invite those who wish to discuss these alternative topics to do so within this thread, as I am sure I would find your comments interesting, at least.

There were a few surprises for me as I read this one, that's for sure. Some of the data really surprised me and proved me to be wrong in some of my previous personal conclusions, while at other times the data I found vindicated things that I was saying all along.

One of the first things I found myself wrong in was this: I had grossly underestimated the actual number of incidents in which firearms were used in a lawful manner so as to either stymie criminal activity or thwart it altogether. For instance, I previously figured that there were about 90-150 such incidents occurring on a monthly basis, and found that no, it was more like an average of 129 episodes per day.

Here's what the raw numbers looked like: in one five-year period focused upon within the report, it was stated that between 2007 and 2011 there were a whopping 235,700 incidents in which a victimized person used a firearm to wound, kill, or drive off a criminal assailant as the victim of a nonfatal violent crime. This amounts to an average of slightly over 47,000 such episodes per year. And to give the reader an idea of just how much bad shit is taking place out there, I wish to add that the report stated that those who did defend themselves against violent criminals represent only 1% of those listed as being victims of violent crime to begin with.

Here I will pause to mention that the annual firearms death total in all these years was nowhere nearly so high as the number of incidents such as those which I just described. Here I would speculate that this seems to indicate that most of those who did use such weapons in lawful self defense were not at all prone to try and actually kill their assailant. This is contrary to the usual depiction of those who wish to maintain firearms for defensive purposes as being prepossessed of some sort of blood lust or any of the other, usual negative characterizations that certain others always seem to wish to assign to them. From other personal studies, I've noticed that actually, in the majority of instances, those who wield a firearm against a violent offender do not tend to shoot in a gratuitous manner at all, but instead mainly hold their fire while the offender scampers off in fear.

Self defense is in inalienable right... it is the natural tendency of all living creatures to fight, flee, or otherwise come up with countermeasures of some sort while under physical attack. We can choose to fight back if we wish. We can also choose to not fight back, and sometimes this is the wisest course of action. However, under uncertain circumstances, my personal predilection has been-- and always will be-- to fight. This is because I have always seen that those who do fight are generally more survivable than their more placid counterparts. At the very least, by fighting back I am not putting my life into the hands of some malefactor, then hoping that he or she will not hurt me if I acquiesce to their victimization of me.

Admittedly, this is a personal philosophy and not some sort of blanket recommendation. That is, I do not presume to instruct others or to prescribe much of anything to anybody else. Life is a real crap shoot, and every incident that takes place that is of such a nature as to call for defensive measures is unique unto itself. I've already given my pedigree when it comes to such affairs out in the past, and will say that my conclusions do have a bit more authority than those of the average lay person. But once again: I do not prescribe much here, and instead have only said what my attitude towards violent criminals happens to be, and what one might expect from me as a reaction to any sort of violent incursion.

Everyone has to make their own choices. In Special Forces we had an aphorism that said, anything you do can get you killed-- including doing nothing. Each person faced with such decisions as are inherent in a defensive situation has to make his or her own choices-- and that is an inalienable right, too.

Morally, I consider the idea that one should be aware of their surroundings and to avoid situations that can get them hurt. It follows that upon the mere premonition of danger, one should flee. However, there are times when this is not feasible, or otherwise possible-- and that there are yet other circumstances in which the wisest course of action for those who mean to survive is to actually go on the offensive themselves. There is no pat solution to every possible scenario in which one might become entangled, and so all manner of potential recourses should be considered-- really, really quickly.

I will say this, however: it is a myth to suggest that only a person with special types of training and experience are able to defend themselves with firearms-- and to do so in a manner that is both lawful and morally sound. I've seen many on this board who seem to feel that there's some specific course of action that will work in all situations, along with those who have mentioned that they've never had any sort of situations such as that would cause a need for defensive measures occur, even though they lived in relatively hazardous or high-crime areas. My response to this is that their experiences were benign, and probably more due to avoidance and happenstance than anything else. I would end this post by also saying that when others make such prescriptions based on their experience-- or lack of it, actually-- they aren't really doing anybody a favor.

Last bit here: the report lists figures and statistics that deal with crime within subgroups of the population at large, and includes statistics that focus on age, gender identity, race, and ethnicity. Some of these issues might be worthy, or at least interesting, to discuss.

--R
 

kmk108

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Let's hope this could stay civil. I wouldn't want to see this post sent to the trash.
 

MineGoesTo11

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Another interesting fact:

School-related homicides of youth ages 5 to 18
accounted for less than 2% of all youth homicides

I've pointed this out on several threads calling for armed guards and teachers at schools, which would be a rather large misallocation of resources.
 

sonar1

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...it is a myth to suggest that only a person with special types of training and experience are able to defend themselves with firearms-- and to do so in a manner that is both lawful and morally sound...


Very true. I meet a lot of creepy "gun people" who dispense all kinds of errant nonsense. Queens of the gun store I call 'em. Full of BS about everything from UN gun grabbers to what they would do in a situation that demanded a response.

Even some periodicals have editors and authors I don't think know what they're saying a good part of the time, especially as concerns Law and the aftermath.

Life is a crap shoot every second. Nobody, even highly trained, can predict how anything will go down.

That said I'd rather be trained and unimpaired at all times, especially vigilant for opportunities to extract myself from the scene of danger before it gets dangerous. Of course, as you stated Robert, that's not always an option.

Nevertheless my hope for the future is dying in a home for the elderly, drooling and carrying on about, "What a great shot I used to be..."
 

TLI-Inferno

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I do believe people have a right to have a weapon to defend themselves, however I must point out, regarding this:

I will say this, however: it is a myth to suggest that only a person with special types of training and experience are able to defend themselves with firearms

Able to defend themselves, yes, but without training and discipline a person may end up firing without properly aiming and hitting bystanders that they are not trying to shoot, or even just getting scared and firing off a few rounds in the direction of what frightened them. The question isn't "can they fend off an attacker". The question is can they do it without hurting someone else? Even soldiers and police who are already trained with use of a firearm need heavy training focusing on being able to take out threats without hurting anyone else. Having a crazy triggerhappy lady running around with a cannon in her pocket ready to shoot a man for "rape" the second he asks if she wants to go out for dinner is not a calming thought. I'm not saying everybody with a gun is like that, I'm just saying, it's a risk, and ensuring that even civilians can get proper training that focuses on control over themselves while using a firearm to hit only the intended target, rather than purely on their aim for hitting the bull's eye, would make me and many other people feel safer. Unfortunately, most courses focus on aim, while preserving things like avoiding bystanders and moving to avoid fire for "advanced" classes. In my opinion these are the first things a person should learn.

Carrying a gun should be just like driving a car. Everyone should have the right to do it unless they have done something drastic to forfeit that right, however they should also be required to prove they will use it responsibly if they want the right to bear it in public.
 

Rocco Crocco

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Why is the Center for Disease Control keeping stats on gun violence? Shouldn't that be in the realm of law enforcement?
 

Roberteaux

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Able to defend themselves, yes, but without training and discipline a person may end up firing without properly aiming and hitting bystanders that they are not trying to shoot, or even just getting scared and firing off a few rounds in the direction of what frightened them.

There are no statistics to prove that your speculations are true. Comparing the number of incidents in which a victim has used a firearm for lawful self defense to the number of slayings and non-fatal shootings that take place each year strongly suggests that you are probably wrong, if what you mean to do is suggest that the sort of panic-stricken reaction you have envisioned is at all typical. Looking at the raw numbers, it appears that in most cases, the victim who deploys a firearm against a criminal assailant never actually fires a shot at all.

Of course, I am not suggesting that the scenario you've presented us with could never happen and am instead saying that it's not the usual response by an armed citizen. Again: if you have data that suggests otherwise, we'd all like to see it.

Carrying a gun should be just like driving a car. Everyone should have the right to do it unless they have done something drastic to forfeit that right, however they should also be required to prove they will use it responsibly.

Here, you should tell us precisely how you expect anybody to prove what they would do in an incident that has yet to take place.

--R
 

Caoimhin

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America does have a gun problem. I'm not sure what caused it and I don't know how to end it.
 

cherryles

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What kind of damage would a 12 gauge shotgun do to an unwanted and threatening criminal found on your premises with intent to harm? I am looking to purchase such a firearm but over here i need to prove i have just needs for it, i.e. hunting, pest control etc. Self defense is not a justifiable reason to own one. Ye guys have it easy!
 

PraXis

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What kind of damage would a 12 gauge shotgun do to an unwanted and threatening criminal found on your premises with intent to harm? I am looking to purchase such a firearm but over here i need to prove i have just needs for it, i.e. hunting, pest control etc. Self defense is not a justifiable reason to own one. Ye guys have it easy!

Depends on the load.. 00 buck at close range will leave a hole in him... #4 bird shot will fvck him up if he's 10m away... a slug if he's running. :laugh2:
 

Roberteaux

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Why is the Center for Disease Control keeping stats on gun violence? Shouldn't that be in the realm of law enforcement?

CDC tracks statistics having to do with the death of human beings by various means, including by violence. This is what they have given as reasons for doing so in their 2009 report:

Public health authorities require accurate, timely, and comprehensive surveillance data to better understand and ultimately prevent the occurrence of violent deaths in the United States (2). In 2000, CDC started planning to implement the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS) (3,4). The goals of this system are to:

--collect and analyze timely, high-quality data that monitor the magnitude and characteristics of violent death at the national, state, and local levels;
--ensure that data are disseminated routinely and expeditiously to public health officials, law enforcement officials, policy makers, and the public;
--ensure that data are used to develop, implement, and evaluate programs and strategies that are intended to reduce and prevent violent deaths and injuries at the national, state, and local levels; and
--build and strengthen partnerships among organizations and communities at the national, state, and local levels to ensure that data are collected and used to reduce and prevent violent deaths and injuries.


Source:

Surveillance for Violent Deaths — National Violent Death Reporting System, 16 States, 2009

--R
 

TLI-Inferno

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There are no statistics to prove that your speculations are true. Comparing the number of incidents in which a victim has used a firearm for lawful self defense to the number of slayings and non-fatal shootings that take place each year strongly suggests that you are probably wrong, if what you mean to do is suggest that the sort of panic-stricken reaction you have envisioned is at all typical. Looking at the raw numbers, it appears that in most cases, the victim who deploys a firearm against a criminal assailant never actually fires a shot at all.

Of course, I am not suggesting that the scenario you've presented us with could never happen and am instead saying that it's not the usual response by an armed citizen. Again: if you have data that suggests otherwise, we'd all like to see it.



Here, you should tell us precisely how you expect anybody to prove what they would do in an incident that has yet to take place.

--R

I never claimed that people accidentally shoot bystanders in self defense on a regular basis. However, it does happen. I don't see why you are so opposed to the idea of providing training for people to know when to fire, when not to fire, how to avoid hitting bystanders, and such. It doesn't take long to explain these sorts of things to people and it could save lives, meanwhile I don't see how informing people of how to avoid accidentally shooting someone could cause any extra harm.

You don't see statistical evidence of people accidentally killing people they didn't mean to shoot because such things aren't listed as "accidentally shot someone out of fear", they're simply listed as murder, manslaughter, etc. It does happen. It's not an every-minute kind of thing, but people do accidentally shoot people they aren't trying to, and it does happen often enough to be worth addressing.

I'm not saying that we know with 100% certainty what a person will do under stress, but we can at least test them to make sure they shoot the targets they're supposed to hit, and not the ones they're not supposed to hit. It's important for a person to be able to distinguish and make the decision to shoot or not to shoot and not just shoot everything that moves when they are afraid.
 

cherryles

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Depends on the load.. 00 buck at close range will leave a hole in him... #4 bird shot will fvck him up if he's 10m away... a slug if he's running. :laugh2:


. . . as in "peppered" and sore, but not quiet dead? :laugh2:
 

TLI-Inferno

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What kind of damage would a 12 gauge shotgun do to an unwanted and threatening criminal found on your premises with intent to harm? I am looking to purchase such a firearm but over here i need to prove i have just needs for it, i.e. hunting, pest control etc. Self defense is not a justifiable reason to own one. Ye guys have it easy!

Just get a 6-guage elephant gun. It's easy to explain why you have one, it's obviously for squirrel hunting and for cutting down the occasional tree.
 

Roberteaux

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I don't see why you are so opposed to the idea of providing training for people to know when to fire, when not to fire, how to avoid hitting bystanders, and such.

Please quote me as having said such a thing, or to have opposed the idea of training. All I said was that it was not necessarily specially trained military or police personnel who are capable of using firearms to defend themselves.

It doesn't take long to explain these sorts of things to people and it could save lives, meanwhile I don't see how informing people of how to avoid accidentally shooting someone could cause any extra harm.

Again, a citation is needed. I do not see myself as having disdained firearms training for anybody at all. Feel free to quote me, if you find me doing so.

It's not an every-minute kind of thing, but people do accidentally shoot people they aren't trying to, and it does happen often enough to be worth addressing.

As I already said: you'll need to provide us with something other than just your personal speculations if you wish to seem at all cogent.

--R
 

LesterNtele

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I wish to add that the report stated that those who did defend themselves against violent criminals represent only 1% of those listed as being victims of violent crime to begin with.



--R

Yes, they had not BECOME victims because the assailants were driven off.

I have a CCW, and I truly believe that pepper spray would be the weapon of choice in most assaults. Hit them in the eye and the threat is OVER, at least for enough time to get out of there. The pain is far worse than getting hit by a bullet (unless its a .45 right in the heart or face)

You can't take back a bullet. Be responsible out there.
 

sonar1

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...Carrying a gun should be just like driving a car. Everyone should have the right to do it unless they have done something drastic to forfeit that right, however they should also be required to prove they will use it responsibly.


Yes, owning a gun is a right, as-is bearing (carrying) it.

However I take exception to your last 1/2 sentence here.

Driving a car (a privilege, not a right) does not require you to take Bob Bonurant's Driving School (for racing) just because you need to commute to work or take the family on vacation.

There are many gun owners who intend only to go duck hunting, or deer hunting. Why should they be required to take a course on a possible use for that gun (self-defense), if they never intend to take said gun out of their safe except during hunting season?

Is it assumed that they are somehow not qualified to defend their life responsibly -should it become necessary- just because they have not been forced by govt edict to qualify somehow with said gun?

How about their carving knife, ax, pitchfork, shovel, roll of nickels, or any other thing they're forced to use to defend their life?
 

Nicky

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How about their carving knife, ax, pitchfork, or shovel?

Because they were invented to slice up a turkey, cut down a tree, harvest hay and dig a ditch...? :hmm:
 

sonar1

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Because they were invented to slice up a turkey, cut down a tree, harvest hay and dig a ditch...? :hmm:



Yes, but because they could conceivably be used as weapons, John Q. Public must be protected from unqualified people who refuse to follow standard safety procedures involved with their use in desperate circumstances as self-defense tools.



When butter knives are outlawed, only criminals will posses butter knives, unless you accept the specialized training to own one.
 

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