Turkey had a good run

parts

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None of "our" business..

We have our own difficulties definitely..
Countries choose or get lied to..and generally get what they wanted or believed or change..

As the world turns...
 

paruwi

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As we are always bombed with the democracy thing, that's what it is.
Democracy = Demos kratos = demos (population) + kratos (power)

Does that tell you something?

Mr. Erdogan has shown the world his view of 'democracy' within the last year....

Does that tell you something ?

I bet the next elections he'll get close to 90%
 

JCM900MkIII

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Election of a leader doesn't make a democratic country.
Certainly not if those elections are manipulated.

And cancelling the body which tests new laws and decrees against a constitution is the opposite of democracy...

And "being elected" does not mean "free reign to do whatever you want at the cost of a big portion of the people"

51.3%.... looks like Brexit.
Maybe that's personal, but issues like these (more control for the Jefe and Brexit) should require atleast a bit more votes to pass...
Unless you want to divide the people (and make the leader a dictator)
 

JohnnyN

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Sadly, history is such a neglected subject nowadays.
 

MikeyTheCat

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What's really disturbing is that 60% of the turks in our country voted pro referendum. At the same time numbers of asylum seekers from Turkey are rising heavily. Erdogan has done a lot for Turkey. Their standard of living has increased significantly during his reign. The problem is that power tends to turn good people into bad ones. People get greedy and corrupt, sometimes mad, and then they do everthing to stay in power, because otherwise they would go to jail. History has shown that so many times. The U.S. president only has two terms for a very good reason.

Or often times they're already bad and just good at hiding it. Power doesn't make a person good or bad but it does amplify what they are.
 

Gooner

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51.3%.... looks like Brexit.

Except that despite a heavily weighted campaign to remain, the vote went the other way, resulting in the UK Parliament regaining power from the EU so an improvement to the UK democratic system.
 

MikeyTheCat

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Bashar al-Assad has/had a 97% approval rating. The guy is so good even his enemies give him good marks.
 

Bill Hicklin

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Not at all, the guy is just loved and respected in the country.


:)

And any Turk who doesn't love and respect him is in prison or dead.


It was Erdogan who had this to say about democracy: "Democracy is like a bus. When you get to where you're going, you get off."

Turkey is getting very near to the old principle of One man, one vote, one time.
 

LtDave32

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All 3 had a majority of their respective nations behind them.

As we are always bombed with the democracy thing, that's what it is.
Democracy = Demos kratos = demos (population) + kratos (power)

From memory President Putin won nearly 90% of votes at the last elections.
Does that tell you something?

Opinion of another nation is irrelevant when a majority of a country's population has its opinion as to who needs to rule them.

In addition, during the recent elections in the US it was assumed that Russia tried to influence the elections. The US strongly objected to that, because of foreign interference with its democratic process.

The same applies to the rest of the world, thus the Sovereignty of each nation should be respected, regardless of ones opinion.



*Mod Note*

Keep US politics out of this thread. Final warning.

 

SteveGangi

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We need to be careful in asking for respect for an elected leader, for the sole reason that he was elected. Adolph Hitler was elected.
As was Hugo Chavez. And Vladimir Putin.
This. They don’t (or shouldn’t) get respect or adulation just because they said so.

Bashar al-Assad has/had a 97% approval rating. The guy is so good even his enemies give him good marks.
Amateur. Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un were both so good, they got promoted to god status.
 

Bill Hicklin

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Let's not forget this guy:
julius_caesar.jpg
 

Roberteaux

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Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I don't really see the removal of checks and balances, giving this man greater authority over all things, as necessarily being a totally good thing.

Since the coup attempt of last July, Mr. Erdogan has caused the arrest of some 70,000 Turkish citizens, most of whom have yet to be formally charged with any sort of crime.

He completely wiped out the judiciary of his country, having arrested well over two thousand judges-- including two supreme court jurists. Like the others I mentioned above, most of these are being held without any formal charge. It's like something out of Kafka's "The Trial".

He has closed down almost 200 media outlets, and arrested a few hundred journalists. Their crime was to say anything negative about him or his policies-- not that they've been charged with this. Instead, like the others, they haven't been charged with anything at all.

Over 7,000 police officials went down along with the judges. About half of them were high ranking officers, and the other half were just rank-and-file coppers. Most of his higher-ranking military commanders have been arrested, along with quite a few NCO types... but at least they managed to get a formal charge: treason, for being suspected as complicit with some attempt at overthrowing Erdogan, allegedly at the behest of the cleric in exile, Fethullah Gulen.

He's also caused quite a few collegiate types to be incarcerated. I'm not sure what the current numbers are, but last time I checked it was a couple hundred professors, and then a large number of deans. Over four hundred university administrative staffers were also part of the college roundup. For some reason, he also saw fit to arrest close to 700 university janitors.

That last part, I don't get. He caused the arrest of 700 college janitors? How influential could a janitor be? But there you have it anyway. :dunno:

Obviously, Mr. Erdogan is attempting to shore up his government after the failed coup... and just as obviously, some of those he has placed under arrest were involved somehow. He said that this was necessary to restore security within the nation-- and I'm sure that to at least some degree, that was true.

Other nations, including the US, have suspended civil rights during an emergency situation. The real test has always been to see if, once the emergency situation ended, whether or not the civil rights of those against the government were restored. In the beginning, Erdogan stated that he expected the emergency situation to last for about 90 days... but it's been well over 90 days since the attempted coup, and meanwhile Erdogan's biggest gesture has been to release about 20,000 or so of the 70,000 he had arrested... and to place them under house arrest.

A great many dictators have risen to power as a result of populist initiatives and procedures, only to kick away the ladder that raised them to political prominence once they were so installed.

The most troubling aspect of this latest maneuver, which resulted in the granting of more sweeping powers to the Turkish president, is that he seems to have acquired the power of judiciary and parliament, and combined that with his executive powers.

The situation is not comparable to Brexit. Have we seen any mass arrests in the UK, any suppression of the media or removal of military officials? The respective houses of Commons and Lords are still intact, the judiciary remains intact, and there hasn't been some great removal of the heads of universities-- or university janitors.

Only time will tell whether or not the granting of such great powers to Erdogan will enhance the stability of his nation.

My personal guess of the moment is that it will not. The vote was close enough, and the changes large enough, that it's almost a certainty that Turkey is about to enter into an era of greater instability than any other since Kemal Ataturk modernized the Republic of Turkey and initiated a secular government.

I could be wrong-- and I even hope I am wrong.

All I know for sure is this: I'm relieved that the US at least removed its nuclear arsenal from Turkey.

--R
 

Bill Hicklin

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RIP Turkey, 1921 – 2017

Recep Tayyip Erdogan didn’t just win his constitutional referendum — he permanently closed a chapter of his country’s modern history.

More than any other reform, [Kemal Ataturk's 1921] Law on Fundamental Organization represented a path from dynastic rule to the modern era. And it was this change that was at stake in Turkey’s referendum over the weekend. Much of the attention on Sunday’s vote was focused on the fact that it was a referendum on the power of the Turkish presidency and the polarizing politician who occupies that office, Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Yet it was actually much more.

Whether they understood it or not, when Turks voted “Yes”, they were registering their opposition to the Teşkilât-ı Esasîye Kanunu and the version of modernity that Ataturk imagined and represented. Though the opposition is still disputing the final vote tallies, the Turkish public seems to have given Erdogan and the AKP license to reorganize the Turkish state and in the process raze the values on which it was built.
 

Bill Hicklin

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I'm not aware of any instance in history where the ruler of a republic who sought and was granted sweeping "emergency" powers ever relinquished those powers voluntarily.

Although Caesar was assassinated, he was succeeded by his great-nephew and adopted son Octavianus who soon renamed himself "The Majestic," Augustus; the Republic was dead.
 

GeeJay

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Sadly I think Turkey is heading towards social and economic ruin. In 10-years time, it will be a complete no-go zone for Westerners (I for one won't be going there again from now on unless some drastic reversal happens). I hope I'm wrong.
 

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