Treble Bleed alternatives/modifications

[jayj]

Hi all,
I have a RS vintage kit in my Tele-clone. It came with an optional .0047 cap to use as a treble bleed and as I was installing the kit, I went ahead and soldered that cap on.
With the cap, I can tell that it's working, when I turn down my volume pot, basically the entire low end drops off my tone. The result is kind of nasally.
Last week, I decided to remove it and see how it changed things. Well, now I have the opposite problem, dropping the volume removes all the treble, which is why treble bleed circuits exist.
The other factor in all this is that it seems to my ears that my tone control is affected by the presence of the bleed circuit. With it, I don't get a lot of swing in my tone control, things stay pretty bright, at least until the tone hits 0. Without it, my tone control functions a lot more like I'd expect, and I like the range a lot better.

So, my question is this: Is there any middle ground? Is there any way to have an in-between treble bleed that lets the volume pot more evenly w/o affecting the tone control? I know other treble bleed circuits use a cap with a resistor (I think?), how does that change things?

(I was just going to email Hilbilly, but I know he's on vacation this week).

 

[hillbilly]

Hi all,
I have a RS vintage kit in my Tele-clone. It came with an optional .0047 cap to use as a treble bleed and as I was installing the kit, I went ahead and soldered that cap on.
With the cap, I can tell that it's working, when I turn down my volume pot, basically the entire low end drops off my tone. The result is kind of nasally.
Last week, I decided to remove it and see how it changed things. Well, now I have the opposite problem, dropping the volume removes all the treble, which is why treble bleed circuits exist.
The other factor in all this is that it seems to my ears that my tone control is affected by the presence of the bleed circuit. With it, I don't get a lot of swing in my tone control, things stay pretty bright, at least until the tone hits 0. Without it, my tone control functions a lot more like I'd expect, and I like the range a lot better.

So, my question is this: Is there any middle ground? Is there any way to have an in-between treble bleed that lets the volume pot more evenly w/o affecting the tone control? I know other treble bleed circuits use a cap with a resistor (I think?), how does that change things?

(I was just going to email Hilbilly, but I know he's on vacation this week).

Depending on what kind of Tone you want out of your Tele, sounds like an RS Modern Guitarcap would suit you better. The Jensen cap that's in the Vintage kit will always remove some of the treble frequencies---that's by design, as ALL paper-in-oil caps will do this. I recommend the Vintage kit for Tele's that are too thin, or for guys that want to fatten up their Tele, and that sounds like what going on here.

If more clarity is what you desire, the RS Guitarcap (when the Tone control is on '10'), is audibly transparent, giving you your highs back. We will have those caps back in stock the first week of August.

 

[jayj]

So to be clear, you're proposing swapping out the Cap on my tone control should brighten the sound up without needing a Treble bleed?

I guess I'm not dissatisfied with the guitar when the controls are on 10, just when I try to make adjustment below that, particularly on the volume.

 

[analogsystem]

Try 50s wiring

 

[Big John]

Just a personal opinion, but .0047 (4700 pf) seems a bit high for a treble bleed volume mod for a Tele. The larger the cap value, the more the treble frequencies stay in the signal as the volume is turned down. The key is finding a balance point. jayj, maybe try a smaller cap value, say 820pf -1000pf (.001) to start with. Hello Radio Shack! If you get to the point where you the like the treble content but want to perhaps change the rate of the treble bleed, attach a 100k - 150k resistor in series with the cap. Connecting the resistor in parallel with the cap seems to have a larger affect on the pot's taper (at least to my ears), but which is how I like to run my humbucker guitars.

Bottom line: experimentation is good, there are no rules to this stuff.

 

[korus]

0.0047 μF = 4.7nF = 4700 pF is way too much for any kind of treble bleed / treble bypass kind of application in any non active guitar circuit.

Use capacitor in range of 330pF-820pF IN SERIES with the resistor in range 100k-220k. Order does not matter.

 

[5F6-A]

I do not like treblebleeds at all but Jonesy sells some that might be interesting to try.

 

[ScottB]

What are the values of the tone pot and cap right now? Maybe the tone pot is too dark as it is, or the pot is too big? Just throwing that out there.

 

[jayj]

It's the RS vintage Tele kit: RS Guitarworks Online Store

Hence, I believe it's the Jensen .047

 

[ScottB]

Isn't that a little bit high for a tele tone circuit?

Something you can try just using temporary jumpers (still not easy in a tele) is to place a similar value tone cap in parallel with the one you have. That will effectively halve the capacitance, giving you the equivalent of a .022uf (or close).

 

[FF_Pedals]

Isn't that a little bit high for a tele tone circuit?

Something you can try just using temporary jumpers (still not easy in a tele) is to place a similar value tone cap in parallel with the one you have. That will effectively halve the capacitance, giving you the equivalent of a .022uf (or close).

Capacitors add in parallel. You are confusing with series which would halve the capacitance for two of the same value. It's the opposite of resistance.

 

[jayj]

Isn't that a little bit high for a tele tone circuit?

I'll let Hillbilly defend that, I bought the kit from RS without bothering to do research into the tone cap values trusting that RS had it right (or at least close to normal).

 

[ScottB]

In their defence, they can't exactly make a one-size-fits-every-pickup-and-amp-and-ear setup. The best they can do is put together a quality arrangement that covers a broad spectrum.

You can test a different value cap fairly easily, and a difference in capacitance is going to be far more obvious than any of the minute differences that make up the whole tone mojo. Just be rational in your analysis, temporary wire leads on alligator clips are not going to be optimum even with the best components, you are really just evaluating the overall range and frequency response. 5 minute test before you go buying all kinds of stuff to try throwing at it blindly.

 

[asmith9509]

Try some smaller cap values. I got the treble bleed in my LP where I like it, and it sounds better with than without. But I had to do a lot of experimenting with component values of cap and resistor. Pretty sure I did mine in parallel. Makes the volume knob a lot more useable, but there are some funky interactions between the volume knob and the tone knob. Hard to get a perfect result really.

 

[hillbilly]

I'll let Hillbilly defend that, I bought the kit from RS without bothering to do research into the tone cap values trusting that RS had it right (or at least close to normal).

In their defence, they can't exactly make a one-size-fits-every-pickup-and-amp-and-ear setup. The best they can do is put together a quality arrangement that covers a broad spectrum.

Like I said above, if you desire more clarity in your Tone, try the RS Guitarcap---it is much more transparent and will really clear up your guitar.

Using the 'treble bleed' cap and all that is redundant with the SuperPots in the Tele kit; you found out when you installed it:

Originally Posted by jayj

...It came with an optional .0047 cap to use as a treble bleed and as I was installing the kit, I went ahead and soldered that cap on.
With the cap, I can tell that it's working, when I turn down my volume pot, basically the entire low end drops off my tone. The result is kind of nasally.

We include the .0047 because when we don't include it, people that are used to putting a 'treble bleed' cap there complain that we don't include one. But as you can see & hear, it is detrimental to your Tone to use it.

With 'regular' 250K pots, you aren't getting a 250K...maybe 230, maybe 220, maybe lower. That's why, along with audio taper, things get muddy when you roll the Volume down. SuperPots have a higher resistance, thus are brighter to start with, plus a more even taper, so that when you roll down the Tone, it doesn't get muddy.

The issue that you are having has more to do with the Jensen cap removing treble signal to begin with, so switching out to another paper-in-oil cap will not help your situation. The much more transparent RS Modern Guitarcap will help you.