Top Secret Wiring of the Pros !

dpgumby

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I've done this treble bleed mod in my Vintage Les Paul type and like it.
How would I go about incorporating this into a Strat type with normal 1 vol. and 2 tones?
Thanks for any help.
With standard strat wiring I don't think it can be done. This sort of treble bleed would create a looped connection from one tone control to the other and they would interact with each other in what would probably be an undesirable way.

If you still want a treble bleed, a conventional type (parallel or series) between the volume pot wiper/pickup signal side would work OK.
 

rytenuff

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Ah! Thanks for that. I had a feeling it wouldn't be straight forward.
The LP is a far easier guitar to tinker with, electrics wise. Four screws out and you're in. You can even have the electrics (pots) out on the bench and still hear what effect your tinkering changes make to the sound.
 

KrankyKarl

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How would all of this work on a LP double cutaway? Two volumes one tone, pretty much the same as a flying V.
Thanks, Dan
 

Emiel

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Just try it for yourself. The wiring the OP presented works as described, and that's just what it is. Another way to wire your guitar.

To wit:
If you have 50's wiring, and not happy with it, try modern.
If treble loss becomes an issue, wire a treble bleed cap across the volume pot.
If you find treble bleed cap thins out your tone when you roll down volume AND tone too much, try wiring the cap across the volume and tone pot (see OP).
If you're not happy with modern, try 50's wiring. Repeat and rinse.

Obviously, the pot taper, values, cap values and type for both tone cap and treble bleed cap is variable, and somewhere along the way, you'll have to experiment.

I've tried all those things, and happy to say, I'm good with the modified treble bleed mod up til now (I don't muck around with extra resistors, though). I just think with the way I play, it's the right fit. Kudos to frank falbo of the original jemsite post.

Your mileage may vary. Good luck!

:cheers:
Sounds very interesting. I tried the '50 wirings before and didn't like the way the pots behaved and it seems to lose some fatness too!

So this 'tapered bleed' modern wiring is for if you want the full sound of modern wiring and retain highs when you dial back the volume pot?

EDIT: just bought all the parts, will try as soon as I got my new set of pickups.
 

cowie86

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Hi everyone,

I know it's not good form to revive an old post but I was wondering if someone could tell me whether this wiring diagram is workable. I've asked two of the original posters about it but they've not got back to me. I believe it's the OPs mods incorporated into a independent volume wiring.

Thanks very much to anyone who tells me this makes sense or not!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f323/cowie86/BestWiring2independentvol_zps98e52153.jpg
 

if6was9

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Man, I LOVE my Les Paul copy. :slash:

First post in 4 years... :thumb:
Much thanks to you, the OP! I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and have used the information to rewire my 2 guitars.
 

pierret

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Hi Ilya, Korus and all

I' ve read all posts here with interest. All objections and so forth. Seems the detractors to what Ilya has offered have not tried it, just criticized as too complicated.

Then I took out the iron and soldered it myself as Ilya is showing. On a Telecaster and on a LP.
I had previously installed the 50s wiring on all my guitars, with mixed results. Specially on Fenders, the volume drop when rolling off the tone knob had always bothered me.
On LP, it was so so, but passable on one.
My other LP has modern wiring, which seems ok but not great since it has a linear tone pot.

The results of this new and improved Ilya drawing : very good. The Tele especially, is a lot better off this way than on either previous stock wiring.
On the LP it is also working flawlessly. On this one I also installed the 150k bleed resistor on the volume knob. I can only say, perfect. I must applaud loudly, especially with the jeers Ilya has received.
The other LP has a wiring that Deaf Eddie published on his site, which is very good, with 4 push-pull pots. So it is REALLY busy in the cavity. The tone pots are wired modern. Only problem is, the push-pull are linear as I said. these only act from 0 to 4, the rest has no taper to speak of.
It may be good to try Ilya's idea there too, but I need dainty finger to scrummage around there. Can someone comment whether this would improve the linear tone taper ?
At any rate, bravo Ilya, I am grateful you showed us your idea, you rock !
 

korus

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Hi Ilya, Korus and all

I' ve read all posts here with interest. All objections and so forth. Seems the detractors to what Ilya has offered have not tried it, just criticized as too complicated.

Then I took out the iron and soldered it myself as Ilya is showing. On a Telecaster and on a LP.
I had previously installed the 50s wiring on all my guitars, with mixed results. Specially on Fenders, the volume drop when rolling off the tone knob had always bothered me.
On LP, it was so so, but passable on one.
My other LP has modern wiring, which seems ok but not great since it has a linear tone pot.

The results of this new and improved Ilya drawing : very good. The Tele especially, is a lot better off this way than on either previous stock wiring.
On the LP it is also working flawlessly. On this one I also installed the 150k bleed resistor on the volume knob. I can only say, perfect. I must applaud loudly, especially with the jeers Ilya has received.
The other LP has a wiring that Deaf Eddie published on his site, which is very good, with 4 push-pull pots. So it is REALLY busy in the cavity. The tone pots are wired modern. Only problem is, the push-pull are linear as I said. these only act from 0 to 4, the rest has no taper to speak of.
It may be good to try Ilya's idea there too, but I need dainty finger to scrummage around there. Can someone comment whether this would improve the linear tone taper ?
At any rate, bravo Ilya, I am grateful you showed us your idea, you rock !
Taper of a linear taper pot can be altered to be closer to audio taper - a resistor between middle and ground lug. Unfortunately, it would make the resultant value of a pot at '10' - less than it was without a resistor.
For a 500k pot with 220k resistor, taper would be pretty much OK, but resultant value of a altered pot it would be ~ 152k. And that is simply not enough to make it usable as vol pot in any guitar with passive electronics - no highs and no high mids whatsoever.

So, you should get 500k audio taper push-pull pots.

useful link : http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/potsecrets/potscret.htm
 

pierret

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For a 500k pot with 220k resistor, taper would be pretty much OK, but resultant value of a altered pot it would be ~ 152k. And that is simply not enough to make it usable as vol pot in any guitar with passive electronics - no highs and no high mids whatsoever.

So, you should get 500k audio taper push-pull pots.

useful link : The Secret Life of Pots
Ok Korus, interesting, that is why you dont recommand the resistor between the vol pot lugs that was on Ilya's drawing ? (the taper mod)
 

johnh

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I'm glad to see this thread is still alive, after 4 years!

Early in the thread, there is a reference to a spreadsheet that I wrote called GuitarFreak. I'd like to let you guys know that I have developed this much further, now at version 4.03. You can see it and download it for free here:

http://guitarnuts2.*********.com/thread/3627/guitarfreak-guitar-frequency-response-calculator?page=1&scrollTo=32056

http://guitarnuts2.*********.com/board/18/reference-articles

(EDIT: damn - cant make a working link..any ideas? Google "guitarfreak spreadsheet" will find it)


It now does many different types of tone control, including TBX, varitone and several others, all in either modern or 50's wiring configuration. It also does bass and treble control such as G&L PTB. As before, it will handle most types of treble bleed arrangement too. For Ilya's design as discussed here, it could do it at particular settings, by adjusting treble bleed components to give a mixed series/parallel arrangement.

I used it to home in on what I think is the best treble control system, and for me its a modern wiring with treble bleed, with 150k and 1nF on a 500k pot.

Anyway, do take a look at the spreadsheet. It was written in Excel 2007, also downsaved to Excel 97-2003. I am told it also works well in a recent libreoffice suite.

cheers
John
 

Beef

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This wiring scheme rocks. Thanks for sharing!

Some may view my latest guitar project as an act of sacrilege on a Les Paul forum, but here goes...

I had a Carvin CS6 laying around. I loved the way it plays, but the stock S22 pickups were a bit TOO warm and smooth sounding for my taste. I like some jangle and bite in my tone, so I swung it in the other direction with some TV Jones Classics. I figured I'd try some wiring mods from this forum while I had the guitar pulled apart. Glad I did. For the tone circuit, I tried just wiring a .001 capacitor between the volume and tone pots, but this yielded too much brightness as the volume gets rolled down. A 150K resistor in series solved that problem nicely. I also did the star grounding mod I found on another thread here, making this thing super quiet.

I'm really happy with the results. The volume controls only affect the volume, with no funky interactions with the tone controls, and no loss of treble as I roll down the knob. The tone controls only affect the treble response, with no funky interactions with the volume knobs. The "woman tones" are thick and bassy, but I get a nice glassy tone when I spin the knob the other way. In short, the controls act intuitively and the tones are natural no matter where I set the dials. Perfect!

I'm VERY tempted to do this wiring on my SG. Thanks again!
 

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mherrcat

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Couple of quick questions if anyone is still monitoring this thread.

In the original "alternate treble bleed/high pass circuit" (first attached image) the yellow wire is connected to lug #1 of the volume pot and the red wire to lug #2. Based on the other diagrams of the "50's wiring" and "Modern wiring" the yellow wire is the switch wire and the red wire is the pickup wire. So my questions are:

Do the wire colors in the "alternate treble bleed" diagram correspond to the "50's" and "Modern" diagrams?

Should I swap my input (pickup) and output (switch) wires on my volume pots?

My volume pots are wired with the pickup to lug #1 and the switch to lug #2 (second attached image.) The "alternate treble bleed" is wired as shown on the diagram with no "R1" resistor. It seems to be working. I tried the 50's style wiring and it was doing something strange to the Vintage Taper volume pots I am using; there was a big drop off at about 8 and between 8 and about 2.5 there was almost no change. With the Modern wiring the volume taper smoothed out quite a bit; still a slight drop at 8, but a smoother, more obvious change from 8 down to 0.

Thanks in advance!
 

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mherrcat

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Nevermind.

I found the answer in an old (very) post on another forum. The yellow wire is the input to the volume pot; the red wire is the output to the switch. The color coding in the original diagram is backwards from the color coding in the "50's", "Modern", etc. diagrams floating around on the web...
 

donP73

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Edit: This thread is PACKED with ALOT of great info so read at least the first page.
I've read ALL the thread. Very interesting!

Exscuse me if I'm resurrecting this discussion with my first post here,
above all because my guitar is NOT a Les Paul... It's a dual humbucker (Seymour Duncan JB/Jazz set) but with only 1 master volume, 1 master tone & 3 way toggle switch. In addiction I added two ON/ON/ON mini switches (one per pickup) to select series/single coil/parallel mode combinations.

I would ask Ilya-v if I can put the same R2 & C2 values on my guitar or I'd consider other values, in consideration of the fact I have only two pots (instead of 4).

Other question: I've read in many guitar-wirings forums that the best combination is Logaritmic pots for Volume and Linear pots for Tone... in this thread, instead (if I've understand it well), it seems you are talking about using ALL audio taper (logaritmic) pots, also for Tone pots... is it right?

Thank you if you'll find time to answer me.
 

Lester

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Zombie! I'd like to use this in a slightly different circuit but I need to understand it first.

Ref: https://www.mylespaul.com/attachments/taper_tb_wiring-jpg.22926/

I see a fairly obvious circuit at the root: Signal coming in on end lug of vol pot, signal going out on vol pot wiper; tone wiper hangs off inbound side of signal/vol pot; the .022 C1 ties end lug of tone to ground. Standard operation, as tone wiper gets closer to C1, more high freq's go to ground. All clear on that.

But, what's happening on the other side of things with C2 & R2? As the vol pot is turned down (more resistance between the wiper and inbound signal end lug on vol pot), does it force more signal to the tone control wiper... and subsequently out the C2/R2 filter to add more treble and resolve the infamous "volume down, gets muddy" problem?

Let me know if I have that much right... then I can move on to better questions. Thx.
 
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freefrog

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But, what's happening on the other side of things with C2 & R2? As the vol pot is turned down (more resistance between the wiper and inbound signal end lug on vol pot), does it force more signal to the tone control wiper... and subsequently out the C2/R2 filter to add more treble and resolve the infamous "volume down, gets muddy" problem?
Yes, it does what you say.

When the tone pot is full up, C2 and R2 act like a cap+resistor (a.k.a "Kinman") treble bleed circuit.

When the tone pot is lowered, it increases the resistance of the treble bleed circuit, making it progressively less efficient while the tone pot does its job.

It gives a more progressive action to the tone pot than with a treble bleed mounted in the normal way.

If memory serves me, my old friend luthier mounted this kind of "variable resistance treble bleed" circuits in his guitars, decades ago...
 

Lester

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OK, thanks. I'm trying to fit this to a two-vol, one tone circuit. The tone in this arrangement is hanging off the circuit after the switch to adjust tone for both.

I had a thought about using a dual ganged pot and having two tone controls that act as one. Might be the simplest solution. But, since I already have a tone pot with a DPDT I was going to do some other tricks with, I'd like to find another way to pull it off. Not sure that's possible.
 

freefrog

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OK, thanks. I'm trying to fit this to a two-vol, one tone circuit. The tone in this arrangement is hanging off the circuit after the switch to adjust tone for both.

I had a thought about using a dual ganged pot and having two tone controls that act as one. Might be the simplest solution. But, since I already have a tone pot with a DPDT I was going to do some other tricks with, I'd like to find another way to pull it off. Not sure that's possible.
Hello,
I"m really not sure either that's possible or at least, I don't see at all right now how it could be done. So, yes, a dual ganged tone control seems necessary here.
Let us know if you've found another solution. Good luck in your experiments anyway. :)
 

Lester

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How about this idea as a variation of the standard treble bleed on a pot:

1603381389840.png


Note: There would be one volume pot per pickup and a single standard tone control would be hanging off the output jack.

When you turn down the volume, resistance increases between the wiper and the outbound lug but decreases to the lug with the filter. So more signal goes to the filter, and back to the output.

Possible issue: volume pot is now a rheostat instead of a voltage divider. Impact? I have no idea... don't know enough about electronics to guess.

Would this work?
 


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