Top Secret Wiring of the Pros !

Jakeislove

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Some people just too opinionated and biased (too brainwashed) to try something new even if its better.



Korus, I think you should join now since you've been away for few days.

This should be fun. :D
People not inclined to tinkering or who only have one guitar really need some tonal evidence before heating up the soldering iron and opening a cavity.:)

It's mainly curiosity, for me. My not experiencing any issues doesn't mean they aren't there, LOL!
 

Ilya-v

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That 'tapering' of treble bypass with unused part of tone pot is a strike of genius.
Thanks to frankfablo and dpgumby.
I just digged it from past years and made guitarists aware of it again. :thumb:

Regarding altering vol pot's audio taper with resistor I'll try to find my excel file I made couple of years ago ... might be useful to someone.
Find them they WILL be usefull. :cool:

OTOH I doubt that many will even try this. Guitarists and luthiers are very conservative part of human population.
Agreed. Some will even try to prove you that 50's wiring is more INTERACTIVE,
and changing the ground location of the tone cap will make a HUGE difference in tone. etc...

If a capacitor company will be making "Slash '87 AFD P.I.O Caps" selling them
for about 200$ each, promising that you'll sound Exactly like Slash in 1987 AFD album.
I'll be laughins SO hard. :laugh2:


I am sure that this info should be made 'sticky', but OTOH the new thread named something like 'Treble bleed/bypass in guitar wiring - everything there is to know about' would stand a better chance.
Exellent idea.
I'll just pack all the info on the first page in a nice organized way, and ask
a Moderator to change the name of the post and sticky it.

Although I'm just a junior member here, but Hey... good info is good info. :D


Sound clips?
Will be done in the near future (as soon as my Vintage CTS will be here).
 

jonesy

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It's not just being conservative, it's the romance behind the concept of using something that the rockstars of the 50's/60's used. The fact that it uses two extra components is enough the scare away the less savvy and the companies that care most about profit, even if it turns both controls into true tone/volume controls.
I don't really think the reason 50's wiring is so popular among players with 20-30+ years of playing experience is because of the Romantic notion, but because it works well and people are happy with it in their guitars.

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/103589-50s-wiring-nutshell.html

Many of the old ways are still the best ways and just because you change something does not make it "better" it's just a different way to do something.

50's wiring preserves the highs when volumes are rolled off without having to add bleed kits and if you use good quality pots vs cheap off brand pots your taper will also be correct without having to add resistors to the circuit.

50's wiring volume control roll off into tube amp mp3 sound clip

And to be honest with 50's wiring there is really not as much interaction between the Tone and Volume controls or drastic drop in volume when Tone controls are used as you guys are making out to be, it is very subtle at best.

I have 50's wiring in my own LP, SG, LP Jr and my Tele and for me it works great. I like the balance and clarity and the way the volume and Tone controls work.

If you guys want to tinker about with your own wiring with extra resistors and bleed caps that are not really necessary for good Tone then that's up to you, just don't expect it to be the next greatest thing. I'll stick with my 50's wiring with all it's charms and nuances. It's been around for over 50's years and I imagine it will be around for even a lot longer ;)
 

jonesy

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no jonsey. 50's wiring is dead & gone forever.
Ha, Lol...you are very funny person Ilya.

Better let Gibson know that so they can start to change over the entire Historic line of LP's to your new type of wiring :laugh2:
 

Raz59

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I don't really think the reason 50's wiring is so popular among players with 20-30+ years of playing experience is because of the Romantic notion, but because it works well and people are happy with it in their guitars.

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/103589-50s-wiring-nutshell.html

Many of the old ways are still the best ways and just because you change something does not make it "better" it's just a different way to do something.

50's wiring preserves the highs when volumes are rolled off without having to add bleed kits and if you use good quality pots vs cheap off brand pots your taper will also be correct without having to add resistors to the circuit.

50's wiring volume control roll off into tube amp mp3 sound clip

And to be honest with 50's wiring there is really not as much interaction between the Tone and Volume controls or drastic drop in volume when Tone controls are used as you guys are making out to be, it is very subtle at best.

I have 50's wiring in my own LP, SG, LP Jr and my Tele and for me it works great. I like the balance and clarity and the way the volume and Tone controls work.

If you guys want to tinker about with your own wiring with extra resistors and bleed caps that are not really necessary for good Tone then that's up to you, just don't expect it to be the next greatest thing. I'll stick with my 50's wiring with all it's charms and nuances. It's been around for over 50's years and I imagine it will be around for even a lot longer ;)
A fair post! If it's "better" or not, I don't know yet, haven't heard clips or done it myself. Warm up the iron, try it yourself and post your thoughts; I'll do it ASAP in a Stratocaster.

If it does as advertised, you'll be noodling less with the controls and more with the strings - what's not to like about that? Is it the two extra components on each control? Or does the idea of using a 50 year old wiring scheme used by the greats allure you more? (See my earlier post...)
At least people will have a good way to fix taper irregularities of all kinds in the future.

To fix the modern wiring's flaw of getting muddier sounds at low volumes, 50's style works well, until you roll off the tone knob and realize you're not overdriving the amp anymore and that the sweet spot is lost.
It's subtle, yes. But not as subtle as a capacitor change, IMHO.
 

Jakeislove

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Ha, Lol...you are very funny person Ilya.

Better let Gibson know that so they can start to change over the entire Historic line of LP's to your new type of wiring :laugh2:
I can't believe you mocked the double secret Slash/AFD wiring, Jonesy.:)
 

jonesy

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A fair post! If it's "better" or not, I don't know yet, haven't heard clips or done it myself. Warm up the iron, try it yourself and post your thoughts; I'll do it ASAP in a Stratocaster.

Yes I was trying to stick to the facts of the matter at hand. And as far as trying it goes I don't even like using the volume bleed mod with modern wiring and find 50's wiring to take care of those issues so wiring up additional caps and resistors just to get the proper taper and treble retention just does not appeal to me I guess.

If it does as advertised, you'll be noodling less with the controls and more with the strings - what's not to like about that? Is it the two extra components on each control? Or does the idea of using a 50 year old wiring scheme used by the greats allure you more? (See my earlier post...)
At least people will have a good way to fix taper irregularities of all kinds in the future.

I like to "noodle" with my controls and normally do not just have everything "dimed"

And I already commented on your Romantic rock star notion theory, read my earlier post.:laugh2: People use 50's wiring because it works, it's really that simple.


To fix the modern wiring's flaw of getting muddier sounds at low volumes, 50's style works well,

Yes it works perfectly for solving the muddy roll off problem as my sound clip demonstrated. ;)

until you roll off the tone knob and realize you're not overdriving the amp anymore and that the sweet spot is lost. It's subtle, yes. But not as subtle as a capacitor change, IMHO.

Simply not true from what I have found using 50's wiring in my guitars with tube amps, there are lot's of "Sweet spots" depends what Tone you are looking for and how you set your controls.
50's wiring works well because it is so simple, in an LP 4 CTS pots with the proper tapers, 2 tone caps and a ground wire, wired up properly. No need for all the extra resistors and bleed caps ;)

 

jonesy

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I can't believe you mocked the double secret Slash/AFD wiring, Jonesy.:)

Yeah, I guess I just had my fill of people distorting the truth and bashing the 50s wiring ;)
 

korus

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Ha, Lol...you are very funny person Ilya.

Better let Gibson know that so they can start to change over the entire Historic line of LP's to your new type of wiring :laugh2:
Actually no need for letting Gibson know, as it makes almost no sense. Why, one might ask. Let's see how Gibson does it with their top of line Custom Shop LPs:

a. ? - 2009 : 4 500k LINEAR taper pots wired modern fake bees
* linear taper for tone pots has usable range 0-3
* linear taper vol pots wired modern when rolled off make (almost) no change until you reach ~3 and then sudden drop to ~1.5 and then off

b. 2009 - now : 4 500k AUDIO taper pots wired 50's fake bees
* audio taper for tone pot - bingo!
* audio taper for vol pot wired 50's when rolled off drops TOO FAST so that when you reach ~7 it's already clean as LP should be at max and then from ~5 to ~1.5 have very good Strat sound from your LP - half bingo - before usable range was 1.5 to 3 now is 7-10, ain't that a giant step ahead? (and you can have Strat tone from your LP 1.5-5, added bonus)

What they wanted to make all along making everyone involved very happy is:
2 audio taper 500k pots for tone
2 linear taper 500k pots for volume
50s wiring
2 russian PIOs (bee's camouflage optional)

So, they are not able to put pots of 2 different tapers in the same cavity. Or not willing to buy 2 different tapers. Or 'does this taper thing make a difference when all controls are on 10'? Or whatever.

So, 4 additional components in the LP's control cavity? Not in this world/life.

My friend, IMO the only funny identity is Gibson.
 

jonesy

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Actually no need for letting Gibson know, as it makes almost no sense. Why, one might ask.

<snip>

So, 4 additional components in the LP's control cavity? Not in this world/life.

My friend, IMO the only funny identity is Gibson.
Where's your sense of humor Korus? :hmm:

And no, I honestly I really don't think Henry is going to be signing off on that change any time soon. ;)
 

korus

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50's wiring is just fine for preserving treble at volume roll off if these little oddities do not bother you:

- volume pots taper depends on tone pots current value, lower you go with tone pot volume pot taper/curve is steeper (closer to audio)
- tone pot's lower settings (0-3) sound strange when volume starts to roll off below ~5, more like a vintage/pre '67 Tele wiring on first position (neck pickup with 0.1uF cap) or bass with treble EQed out

I tried it, I know how to use it, I've used it even live, but if I can choose, and I can, I will always go with modern wiring with bleeds, simple series or this improved version.

Some people use controls a lot, but do not use whole range and do not go there where these issues exist. For them, 50's wiring is good enough, I do agree.
 

Quill

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korus and others, are you plugging straight into tube amps, and controlling the whole clean-to-scream thing with your guitar's controls? It sounds like it, but no-one is stating that explicitly. It is a specialized application.

I plug straight into an old Twin and into a newer amp that is sort of based on the blackface Deluxe circuit, and I've fooled around with both modern and '50s wiring in my Gibsons, and I can make both work pretty well with either scheme. But I recently got a PRS, and I can do things with the controls in that guitar that I just can't seem to make happen with my Gibsons ... and there's a wiring scheme in there I don't recognize, with some extra caps and resistors in the vol/tone circuit. I mean, it looks a little odd but it just works incredibly well. So - I'm feeling pretty open-minded about all this.

But - putting energy into arguing ... I dunno if there's much good going to come from that. Those who are into it will try it, and those who are happy with what they already know probably won't. I've been dumped on recently for using connectors in my set-up. Yet there are others who have tried it, and they like the idea. Bah-humbugs, everywhere we go, in this life. What a fella to do? Keeping my chin up and my heart light, that's what I'm trying to do.
 

Ilya-v

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I remember back then (1987 around AFD era) when Slash invented the wheel, color tv's and nuclear power.
No one believed him these were good invention.

And look where we are now.

Square wheels? Black & White TV's? Steam engines?
No thanks.
 

onehippie

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"The tone pot is basically an "escape" for some of the signal. By turning down the pot, you reduce the resistance of the pot, which "opens" a path to ground from the circuit through the cap. With the modern wiring, the frequencies that are allowed to go to ground don't go through the volume pot so they're lost immediately. With the 50s style wiring, these frequencies are bled off after the volume pot"

now turn down the vol and your cutting to ground low frequencies and more highs
with 50s i can more control the amount of signal presented to tone pots ground as it is diverted from lug to switch
 

MrRhoads

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I remember back then (1987 around AFD era) when Slash invented the wheel, color tv's and nuclear power.
No one believed him these were good invention.

And look where we are now.

Square wheels? Black & White TV's? Steam engines?
No thanks.
Yeah and PAF pickups still set the standard for pickups now adays;)
 

Mookakian

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Interesting thread,

im sure they are different but 50's wiring is my poison ATM, i dont know what you mean by all the interaction problems, when i turn my volume down, no sound:shock: Highs are fine:) vol swells are fine, and i can dial in a creamy tone or icepicks to the ear with my tone pots...but ill try your invention later next week for kicks;)
 

Raz59

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i dont know what you mean by all the interaction problems, when i turn my volume down, no sound:shock: Highs are fine:) vol swells are fine, and i can dial in a creamy tone or icepicks to the ear with my tone pots
The interaction "problems" are this: as the tone control is reduced, 50’s wiring starts to cut deeply across all the frequencies except the very lowest, acting more like a volume control.
The tone control is acting through the resistance of the volume control, resulting in it seeing a variable impedance, cutting much more deeply when the volume pot is reduced.

You can test this practically as I have - set up your amp's gain just a little bit beyond it overdrives. Roll off your tone knob and report your results. When I did this test, I thought "Funny, this reminds me of the volume knob when I had modern wiring...volume drops and it gets muddy :shock: "

Another thing is how it alters the volume taper; even if you have a perfect taper from 0 to 10, when the tone knob enters in action, the taper's curve will steepen, it seems.

No "YMMV" here, it's what happens electrically. But it's more serious to have a dual function volume knob (modern wiring) than to have a dual function tone knob (50's wiring)...IMHO of course.
 


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