Tokai: New vs Old

[Marco78]

Hi boys, is there someone that have played some old and news Tokai? Are the quality and the sound the same?

The old Tokai have reach ridiculous prices, are it better compared to new ones?

regards

Marco

 

[villager]

i think you need to look at the specs of each, for the same specs, i think the prices are about the same, so you need to ask yourself, do I want old or new wood?

 

[Dino Velvet]

I have always found this to be wishful thinking on the sellers part. If the specs are the same, they came from the same factory and were built the same way. So it's up to you. Which is better , a 1989 Epiphone LP or a 2005 Epiphone LP . The old wood thing is a trickle down from the original 50's bursts. It reaches maximum hilarity in the phrase...vintage Agile for sale.

 

[villager]

thats not so true for tokai's though they were not built the same way old and new

 

[Marco78]

i think you need to look at the specs of each, for the same specs, i think the prices are about the same, so you need to ask yourself, do I want old or new wood?

I don't think that similar model cost the same. But I'm not sure that this are similar model....

50-60 --> 90-100

80-100 --> 150

120 150 --> 320

and so on?? are the prices about duplicate in 30 years?

A LS 50-60 cost about 1000 €, I for this price got a 2009 LS 150.

 

[tonebone]

When did they start using CNC. That's what you want to know.

Hand made, or computer driven accuracy.

 

[villager]

i just sold a 1980 ls-60 for 600 euros, so 1000 for an LS-50 is not current value, ls-80 and above you get into top spec older stuff, and so the price increases, these are similar to new ls-150 and so are the prices, the older ones are hand made not machine made, the new ones have a long tenon, so for a 30 year old hand built guitar, i think the prices should be higher than a machine made newer model, but thats just my opinion, at the end of the day you pay for the specs..

 

[reborn old]

The old Tokai have reach ridiculous prices, are it better compared to new ones?
regards
Marco

You might not be taking into account that, due to inflation, comparable models have doubled in many cases, spec wise from late 1970's through late 2000 models.
Tokai no longer makes a 3 piece top base model comparable to the original LS-50's
The closest current model to an original LS-60 would be an LS-92 or LS-98 I think.
The closest current model to an original LS-80 with a 1 piece back and solid plaintop w nitro finish is the current LS-160 plaintop.
The closest current model to original an LS-150 with a 1 piece back and solid flametop w nitro finish is the current LS-260 solid flametop (newer custom order models with lower graded top grains rate lower than original LS-150's).
Add to that, the originals were nitro finish instead of nitro over poly (not sure which is really better, I have both), the original LS-80+ models had fret edge binding and often better fretboard and top wood selections (except for high end current LS models that feature Brazilian boards and backs). I do prefer many modern mahogany LS backs over almost all vintage LS backs however (current one piece backs are often similar to Navigator NLP-380 backs on LS-165 + higher models). New fret boards are very true compared to many 30 year olds and modern USA electronics are better.

The old wood thing is a trickle down from the original 50's bursts.

IMHO, "Old wood" is an overblown urban myth that is self perpetuating, because no one has taken the trouble to prove or disprove it scientifically.
Why not ? ...because 1500+ Gibson pre '61 LP owners have a vested interest in keeping the myth alive.
It's the "Stradivarius vs other Italian violins of the day" argument all over again, and has little to do with wood vintage. Wood selection probably, to a very small degree.
Jimmy Page's bursts were about 10 years old when he began recording with Led Zep. He might very well have bought a 1956 GT instead, if older wood really mattered. Do his bursts sound better today then in the '70s ? I doubt it. I think his sound and Peter Green's were the result of a complete package (not just their bursts) the result of obsessive tweeking to achieve their sounds.

 

[BrazenPicker]

FWIW, I have a 2009 guitar where every time I strum a chord it puts a smile on my face. Same with another guitar that I estimate to be less than 10 years old. Both have a beautiful, complex tone, no dead spots, sustain....

Even if there is something to old wood, my experience with these two guitars has effectively killed any neurosis I might have felt about it. I really don't feel I'm missing out on anything with these 2 guitars. Something I also like about these newer guitars is that I don't have to feel afraid to touch them. That said, I own both old and new ones, and I'll keep buying both opportunistically.

 

[PsychoCid]

I don't own anything older than mid-80s but my experience is absolutely that wood density/water content and thickness of the finish are signifcant to tone.

Of course, there are people that can't hear the difference between mahogany and alder -- I can't prove what something sounds like to a deaf person.

 

[reborn old]

If I ever return to a position of financial liquidity, I'm going to buy an Agile or MIC LP (other than Edwards), a bolt on neck LP, buy (or rent) a '68 Gibson LP GT that's been butchered to accept Humbuckers, then I'll buy 5 sets of SD antiquities that are as close as possible resistance wise as possible, and post sound clips of these SD equipped guitars along with my SD'd old + new MIJ LP's online for anyone to guess which guitar is which, from posted HQ sound clips.
I think it's reasonable to assume the '68 GT will be as close to a '59 burst soundwise as possible (other than the SD control pickups used). If most people manage to pick the 1968 GT from the rest, I'll rent a spectrum analyzer to test each guitar. It's an unknown I really want to put to rest, even if only to resolve the degree of difference between old and new and Gibson brazilian VS MIJ African mahogany. The only thing the tests would'nt really answer is wether '59 burst PAF pickups sound better or very different from SD antiquities.
I wish someone like UITA would offer opinions on this, in the interim, based on his amazing selection of similar LP's.

Have all your newer LP's sounded inferior to the 30yr olds Mark ? I've got to concede you have years more experience and have owned a lot of amazing vintage guitars, so I'm more than a little curious...

 

[reborn old]

I don't own anything older than mid-80s but my experience is absolutely that wood density/water content and thickness of the finish are signifcant to tone.

Maybe thickness but...
guitar woods are air dried then kiln dried to equal average room moisture levels before assembly, which is why they dont undergo exposed wood checking within months of production. People have argued back and forth about wether nitro breathes or not, and it doesn't really matter much, because with very few exceptions, woods are in a state of moisture equilibrium to avoid damage to begin with. No one here weighed their LP's 30 years ago for comparison purposes, but the LP's probably haven't gained or lost more than an ounce of weight regardless. Desert climates might be the only exception to this, if humidifiers aren't used.

 

[Marco78]

TOKAI LS-120 Love Rock FLAMETOP 1980 59 VINTAGE MIJ Wow su eBay.it Electric, Guitar, Musical Instruments

2100 €???????????????????????????????????

TOKAI LS-50 Love Rock Cherry Sunburst MIJ 80 Japan 1980 su eBay.it Electric, Guitar, Musical Instruments

960 €...

For me this prices are ridicolous.

 

[wulfman]

TOKAI LS-120 Love Rock FLAMETOP 1980 59 VINTAGE MIJ Wow su eBay.it Electric, Guitar, Musical Instruments

2100 €???????????????????????????????????

TOKAI LS-50 Love Rock Cherry Sunburst MIJ 80 Japan 1980 su eBay.it Electric, Guitar, Musical Instruments

960 €...

For me this prices are ridicolous.

They will be ridiculous if someone buys the guitars. For those prices there are lots of other alternatives.

 

[villager]

hi reborn old, no generally, i wouldn't say the best newer ones are inferior, but theres so much more to the equation apart from new and old wood, but i have only tried and stocked the top models available for the new stuff, having said that i usually prefer the older guitars, but there are always exceptions to my preferences. I have some new guitars which are exceptional instruments, but I have some older guitars which have something extra magic for me, and I can only attribute it to the age.

 

[villager]

TOKAI LS-120 Love Rock FLAMETOP 1980 59 VINTAGE MIJ Wow su eBay.it Electric, Guitar, Musical Instruments

2100 €???????????????????????????????????

TOKAI LS-50 Love Rock Cherry Sunburst MIJ 80 Japan 1980 su eBay.it Electric, Guitar, Musical Instruments

960 €...

For me this prices are ridicolous.

for europe those 2 are too high.. the ls-50 more so than the ls-120, but with import taxes and shipping, as wulf said there are better alternatives;;

 

[Marco78]

They will be ridiculous if someone buys the guitars. For those prices there are lots of other alternatives.

for europe those 2 are too high.. the ls-50 more so than the ls-120, but with import taxes and shipping, as wulf said there are better alternatives;;

In Italy I'd pay 24% of duties...

I don't want get any old guitar, but I was curios to know some boys that have used both guitars.
On my LS 150 (flamed top) I have added complete wiring with braided shiedd wire, Log CTS (TVT type) and PIO russian caps. I'm waiting for Leosound pickups.. I'm really excited!!!

 

[ralphtown]

I,ve been thinking of Tokai myself but I,m on a tight(ish) budget.
so,what about ALS48 or 52...are they good guitars or only good for keeping the house warm.

A little bit cheaper than an Epi but not mahogany in there...so do they have the tone.

i,d like opinions on these modern guitars

RALPH

 

[Marco78]

I,ve been thinking of Tokai myself but I,m on a tight(ish) budget.
so,what about ALS48 or 52...are they good guitars or only good for keeping the house warm.

A little bit cheaper than an Epi but not mahogany in there...so do they have the tone.

i,d like opinions on these modern guitars

RALPH

Ralph, LS 48 or 52 are korean (or chinese) guitars and so the quality isn't very good. If you have a low budget I'd buy a Vintage Les Paul but I don't have played no one of this guitars.

 

[SkyNet3D]

When did they start using CNC. That's what you want to know.

Hand made, or computer driven accuracy.

That should be mechanical vs cnc. Because no factory would last long building everything by hand. Gibson carved tops are done using a mechanical dupli-carver.
What i think matters when hands are involved is in making sure things line up properly, that the tenon is tight, stuff like that.

Wether old Tokais are better than new ones, i have no idea, but if they are, they must be amazing guitars, because current ones are fantastic.