Titebond for fretboard..ebonizing & hardening wood

[dschwartz]

hi folks..
noob question n° 1:
is titebond OK for glueing a rosewood fretboard to a neck? or it HAS to be hide glue?


noob question n° 2:
i found a very interesting technique called ebonizing, which stains any wood with reasonably high tanine content into ebony-like black by means of the reaction between tanines and iron oxide..

i have some hard rauli pieces (janka around 1200, i guess, and high tanine content) and i´d like to experiment staining it with this technique.. but i want to make it harder..
my ideas for this are:
a) toasting the piece in the oven after ebonizing it..most probably will warp like a pig's tail
b) fire hardening
c) use diluted sanding sealer to penetrate the wood...
d) use polietilene diluted in paint thinner (yup, diy wood hardener) to
penetrate the wood
e) use CA or epoxy (although this would give a plastic-like finish, i think?)
f) Rub some viagra powder to make it stiffer
g) stop waisting my time, and get real rosewood

what would you reccommend to harden the surface of wood??

 

[emoney]

Titebond is perfect for gluing the fretboard to the neck. Make sure it's Titebond I (original) just in case you ever need to remove it.

 

[Barnaby]

I've done a CA finish and it is certainly hard, but quite plastic feeling, as you suspect. The viagra also works well, but, when you play it a lot, your fingers can stiffen...

Easiest way is just to buy the wood you want in the first place.

 

['59_Standard]

but i want to make it harder..

Glue it under water?


*I'll be here all week folks. Try the veal.


I guess you could experiment. Just not on the real neck - first.

 

[dschwartz]

Yup..i think i'll setup an experiment..
Now thinking how i'll measure the results..some kind of janka without a force meter..
Maybe dropping something from a consistent height

 

[melomanarock]

Yup..i think i'll setup an experiment..
Now thinking how i'll measure the results..some kind of janka without a force meter..
Maybe dropping something from a consistent height

If it's hardness you want to measure, just take a nail and place a known weight over it before and after the hardening process, and then try to measure the size of the indent on both cases.

Can you share this ebonizing process you found?

 

[dschwartz]

If it's hardness you want to measure, just take a nail and place a known weight over it before and after the hardening process, and then try to measure the size of the indent on both cases.

Can you share this ebonizing process you found?

yes, that´s exactly what i had in mind..

about the ebonizing process, i read many articles, but i think this one explains it very well:

Ebonizing Wood Study

 

[Canadrian]

I like to add another question to this topic if that is OK...

I have been given some books on Wood and Tools. Now I have been reading these books and discovered that a lot of woods used in guitar making are scarce/endangered and environmentally not very responsible.

So I am investigating alternative wood types that are more sustain-able (tone and environmental) and share characteristics with the common woods used to build guitars.

Since Gibson is now using Richlite (Paper based fiber composite) for the fretboards as replacement for the Ebony I was wondering if there has been any experience here on the forum with alternative methods in creating an ebony "look" by staining or the method mentioned above?

I have a fair amount of Jatoba which is not endangered and has a pretty high Janka value. I want to try and stain it black/Brown to see how that turns out as fretboard material.

Any opinions, comments and suggestions are more than welcome...

Any other woods that resemble mahogany as well...

Maybe I can build a sustainable guitar...

Hippie that I am ;-)

 

[Brian I]

I like to add another question to this topic if that is OK...

I have been given some books on Wood and Tools. Now I have been reading these books and discovered that a lot of woods used in guitar making are scarce/endangered and environmentally not very responsible.

So I am investigating alternative wood types that are more sustain-able (tone and environmental) and share characteristics with the common woods used to build guitars..

Since Gibson is now using Richlite (Paper based fiber composite) for the fretboards as replacement for the Ebony I was wondering if there has been any experience here on the forum with alternative methods in creating an ebony "look" by staining or the method mentioned above?

I have a fair amount of Jatoba which is not endangered and has a pretty high Janka value. I want to try and stain it black/Brown to see how that turns out as fretboard material.

Any opinions, comments and suggestions are more than welcome...

Any other woods that resemble mahogany as well...

Maybe I can build a sustainable guitar...

Hippie that I am ;-)

Ebony isn't very scarce, especially since Bob Taylor took over the ebony market.

There are many Stella guitars from the 30s that have ebonized fretboards: they tend to lose their ebonized look and look really bad. Personally I would just get a dark colored wood

If you're looking for an ebony that is a bit more sustainable and higher quality, check out Macassar ebony. It's much stabler than other ebonies, is harvested in an ecological way that doesn't damage the rainforest (by hand), and the locals who harvest the wood are paid a reasonable wage for their effort.

 

[Canadrian]

Thanks Brian I!! That's a start. I see that the Madagascar Ebony is in the Appendix 3 of endangered. (wood-database.com)

As mentioned earlier I have a huge amount of Jatoba Board (Old flooring) that is super hard and straight and will make perfect fretboards. I wonder how that would hold up as a fretboard it is slightly lighter than rosewood. I might test a stain on it to see how it comes out.

But despite all this the fact is still that Ebony wood is endangered and Rosewood even more! As this is Appendix 1.

 

[dschwartz]

Thanks Brian I!! That's a start. I see that the Madagascar Ebony is in the Appendix 3 of endangered. (wood-database.com)

As mentioned earlier I have a huge amount of Jatoba Board (Old flooring) that is super hard and straight and will make perfect fretboards. I wonder how that would hold up as a fretboard it is slightly lighter than rosewood. I might test a stain on it to see how it comes out.

But despite all this the fact is still that Ebony wood is endangered and Rosewood even more! As this is Appendix 1.

jatoba is a pretty common wood for fretboards here in south america..but is mostly used for flooring..i checked a box of jatoba flooring boards the other day at my local home store, but they only sell the whole box (like 8 boards) for around 180 bucks..too much for just a couple of guitars.

for what i saw, jatoba is pretty damn hard, with a nice even grain and less oily than rosewood.. with some staining it should look and feel pretty good..

 

[dschwartz]

Ebony isn't very scarce, especially since Bob Taylor took over the ebony market.

There are many Stella guitars from the 30s that have ebonized fretboards: they tend to lose their ebonized look and look really bad. Personally I would just get a dark colored wood

If you're looking for an ebony that is a bit more sustainable and higher quality, check out Macassar ebony. It's much stabler than other ebonies, is harvested in an ecological way that doesn't damage the rainforest (by hand), and the locals who harvest the wood are paid a reasonable wage for their effort.

well, if a guitar i made lasts for 80 years, i wouldn´t mind some fretboard discoloration..i wont be alive to know about it..
anyway, "ebonizing" is a wide word.. some folks call "ebonize" to simply stain the fretboard.. but with the iron solution, the wood itself changes its colour to black via oxidation.. so the only way to loose the color is going thru the outer wood..depending how deep the iron got.

 

[dschwartz]

Ok.now preparing the experiment!!!!
I made 4 rauli fretboard blanks

And wrote on each what i gonna do with it and the initial "janker" test and the fingernail test..
Piece 1 will be just toasted in the oven
Piece 2 will be toasted with olive oil (yup..maybe some garlic powder and rosemary also )
Piece 3 will have diluted sealer.
Piece 4 will have polietilene.

All of the above after ebonizing it..

I left some steel wool dissolving on vinegar:

And my "janker " test device..a nail thru a block..i put the piece and place a guitar body and my planer over it so the nail dents the surface..

Looks like the wood is already kind of hard because the dents left are pretty faint...
I will post my findings as i go

 

[aaron17]

i know one guy uses vinegar + steel wool mixture, wipe on the wood. it kinda darken the wood like the fuming process with ammonia. i've tried it on mahogany, nothing happen. someone might wanna give it a go.

 

[dschwartz]

Ehm..that exactly what im doing..

 

[Barnaby]

Thanks Brian I!! That's a start. I see that the Madagascar Ebony is in the Appendix 3 of endangered. (wood-database.com)

Ah...but he said Macassar ebony. Different wood. I've made several fingerboards out of it and it's great stuff.

 

[dschwartz]

Guys..first day of experimentation..
I painted the boards with the iron solution and the turned grey..with some oil on them, looks pretty much like rosewood but darker..

Well my first try today was ebonizing a piece, applied linseed oil and put it in the oven:

That foam on the surface is the oil boiling..

Results:
With the oil over the ebonized wood it looked really good..better than my rosewood!
But i did a quick fingernail test and there was no change in hardness..
Also, a few strokes with 180 grit and the black wood was sanded away..

Conclusion:
I wont waist my time on further tests and get me some real rosewood for fretboards...but this ebonizing technique may give very interesting finishing options..

Cheets

 

[Brian I]

I'm not sure if you're familiar with persimmon, but it's the only ebony tree that grows in North America. The lumber yielded from these trees is white in color, yet still has all the other properties of ebony. Tom Thiel developed a method of dying the wood black entirely through (no matter how much you sand it's still black). I'm not sure what the process is, but maybe he could offer some insight.

His site is Home | Northwind Wood: Tonewood for Luthiers, Specialties and Accents for Woodcraftsmen

 

[fatdaddypreacher]

i have often wondered what pressure would do. that's the way they treat pine for ground contact. maybe a pressure cooker of some type.

 

[dschwartz]

Yup, pressure would help..but youll need a weird pressurizing device..
Also soaking for weeks may help too..