Tips - Spotting Fakes thread

[battra]

I think that a great deal of this phenomenon comes from the fact that these aren't built one at a time. The counterfeit pieces (necks and bodies) are probably produced in pretty high volume. Rather than scrap the lot (once they figure out where they missed the mark) they make 'em and sell 'em, knowing full well the flaws. Next time, the parts are a little more accurate and so on and so on.

The keys to their "success" are: 1) cheap parts (cheap raw materials fashioned into parts via high volume manufacturing) and 2) low labor costs (i.e. as little human interaction with the product as possible (in addition to low statutory wages)). This second part is what makes it possible for us to still spot the fakes. There will come a time when this will be quite difficult for us to do, without getting our hands on the guitar and fully vetting it.

Honestly, I've seen some fakes that had people vexed for a time if they were real or not.

There are some very good looking ones out there.

 

[Slashperryburst]

Actually, they build them the way they do, not because of "slave labour", or "low wages", but in order to keep building/material costs low, while maximizing quicker profits.

They have more than enough information to produce accurate reproductions, but it would cost more money, with slower returns. It's very simple economics.

It wouldn't cost a lot to have some decent templates made up. It would make them that little bit harder to catch too. I saw footage from one of those factories on the Gibson forum. They were making counterfeit Gibsons and Fenders. I wish I had the link, but that was slave labour. I am aware of basic economics, but there are a few easy, low cost changes they could make that would fool most of us in a few photos. The only reason why these guitars are still being made with painfully obvious errors points to the possibility that no one working there gives a shit.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It wouldn't cost a lot to have some decent templates made up. It would make them that little bit harder to catch too. I saw footage from one of those factories on the Gibson forum. They were making counterfeit Gibsons and Fenders. I wish I had the link, but that was slave labour. I am aware of basic economics, but there are a few easy, low cost changes they could make that would fool most of us in a few photos. The only reason why these guitars are still being made with painfully obvious errors points to the possibility that no one working there gives a shit.

... not to mention the fact that the vast majority of customers don't really know what to look for, which is one reason I disparage the whole "don't point out the flaws" approach.

I agree with the others above that it's not a matter of "not giving a shit", but rather, that it isn't economically feasible to correct the errors, either because of the expense of retooling, or expenses involved in the supply chain. The reason I say this is because I've seen legit Chinese builds from Epi that are pretty damned good in terms of workmanship.

I agree with you that I don't want my money supporting businesses in a country with a track record of using slave labor, for fear that I might be supporting it directly.

 

[02589]

I respect the various opinions but.....

I think education is the most important. IMHO, if we can save a person from buying a fake, it outweighs the chance that some spy will learn from our discussions.

 

[DLChance]

Okay, I don't mean to be contrary just to be a troll, or generate any hostility, but I just want to add an observation, and ask a question, that seems lacking in these threads.

I've spotted at least a dozen fake LPs in Dallas-area pawn shops, and two in a locally-owned music store. I've also come across fake 335s and Rickenbacker basses. But specifically about Les Pauls, I'm sure there were others I missed.

Like Thump said, a Chinese guitar company can just buy genuine Les Pauls, and duplicate them down to pinpoint precision accuracy if they want.

After all, Chinese guitar companies have even more access to quality tonewoods from around the world than Gibson does, since they aren't bound to observe the Lacey Act - and they can can get those woods in sufficient quantity to tap into some SERIOUSLY nice wholesale pricing (especially since the Lacey Act eliminates domestic U.S. guitar companies as competition for those woods). They can also outfit their manufacturing facilities with the newest and best computer-controlled high-tech tools and machinery for fabricating bodies and necks - just like anyone else. All it takes is money, and they have plenty of it.

And the Chinese culture has one of the longest histories on the planet for turning out high-quality woodwork. Experienced Chinese guitar builders are every bit as talented and skilled as luthiers anywhere. To think otherwise strikes me as a little ethnocentric at best, and maybe racist at the other end of the scale.

So why then are so many of their LP copies so cheap and easy to spot?

The me, that's the real question, because the reality is that THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE.

If they wanted to, they could make Les Paul copies so exact that we'd never know the difference between them and the real thing. Remember a few years ago when the IPod mp3 players came out, and the only way to spot the difference between the genuine article and the much cheaper Chinese copies was that the copies were actually BETTER than the originals because they corrected a minor software glitch inherent in the original design?

They already make Epiphones in China. Going the extra mile to make exact Gibson copies is not that difficult for them.

But they don't.

Or...do they?

I wish I knew.

(PS - My four Les Paul Deluxes are from 1972, and my LP Recording Model is from 1975. I've had them all for more than 25 years; 35 years in the case of one of them. So there's no doubt about them being genuine.)

EDIT: Sorry, these issues seem to have been mostly addressed already. I was writing this between doing other work, and it took me longer than I expected.

 

[BillB1960]

Okay, I don't mean to be contrary just to be a troll, or generate any hostility, but I just want to add an observation, and ask a question, that seems lacking in these threads.

I've spotted at least a dozen fake LPs in Dallas-area pawn shops, and two in a locally-owned music store. I've also come across fake 335s and Rickenbacker basses. But specifically about Les Pauls, I'm sure there were others I missed.

Like Thump said, a Chinese guitar company can just buy genuine Les Pauls, and duplicate them down to pinpoint precision accuracy if they want.

After all, Chinese guitar companies have even more access to quality tonewoods from around the world than Gibson does, since they aren't bound to observe the Lacey Act - and they can can get those woods in sufficient quantity to tap into some SERIOUSLY nice wholesale pricing (especially since the Lacey Act eliminates domestic U.S. guitar companies as competition for those woods). They can also outfit their manufacturing facilities with the newest and best computer-controlled high-tech tools and machinery for fabricating bodies and necks - just like anyone else. All it takes is money, and they have plenty of it.

And the Chinese culture has one of the longest histories on the planet for turning out high-quality woodwork. Experienced Chinese guitar builders are every bit as talented and skilled as luthiers anywhere. To think otherwise strikes me as a little ethnocentric at best, and maybe racist at the other end of the scale.

So why then are so many of their LP copies so cheap and easy to spot?

The me, that's the real question, because the reality is that THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE.

If they wanted to, they could make Les Paul copies so exact that we'd never know the difference between them and the real thing. Remember a few years ago when the IPod mp3 players came out, and the only way to spot the difference between the genuine article and the much cheaper Chinese copies was that the copies were actually BETTER than the originals because they corrected a minor software glitch inherent in the original design?

They already make Epiphones in China. Going the extra mile to make exact Gibson copies is not that difficult for them.

But they don't.

Or...do they?

I wish I knew.

(PS - My four Les Paul Deluxes are from 1972, and my LP Recording Model is from 1975. I've had them all for more than 25 years; 35 years in the case of one of them. So there's no doubt about them being genuine.)

They could make copies that would be extremely difficult to spot, certainly the current ones aren't. My personal opinion is it's a cost factor. They realize they aren't going to fool all of the people all of the time they just want to fool some of the people some of the time and do it as cheaply as they possibly can. The counterfeiters don't hire craftsmen they hire what basically amounts to slave labor to make these guitars and as long as they're close enough why spend the extra money to make them identical?

 

[DLChance]

The counterfeiters don't hire craftsmen

I agree. But I've also known at least ten guys who went to Nashville to become professional songwriters or sidemen with touring singers - one who went there to work as a blues session guitarist but became a middle school principal instead - whose first jobs in town were working at the Gibson factory. They weren't experienced craftsmen when they were hired, either.

It's a fascinating subject, and it'll be really interesting to see how it continues to develop.

 

[bartron]

They could make a 100% likeness of a gibson. It's not impossible. People here do the same every other day (minus headstock logo of course). Plans are out there, you could buy one and take measurements etc.

It's not so much that they don't have to...they don't have time to/can't afford to. You simply can't add quality to a product without increasing the cost. The cost of making a neck and chucking it due to some minor flaw. The cost of quality electronics. The cost of time for someone to spot-check everything.

They are all made in CNC machines, stamped out by the 100's. There will always be flaws. The day there aren't any flaws is the day they could remove Gibson from the headstock and sell as a legitimate off-brand. You'll be paying at least double what they currently sell for though.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

And the Chinese culture has one of the longest histories on the planet for turning out high-quality woodwork. Experienced Chinese guitar builders are every bit as talented and skilled as luthiers anywhere. To think otherwise strikes me as a little ethnocentric at best, and maybe racist at the other end of the scale.

So why then are so many of their LP copies so cheap and easy to spot

diminishing returns (economics) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

The more expensive the raw materials, the closer their prices must get to Gibson prices, and the fewer guitars they will sell, meaning that those more expensive materials are even less affordable.

 

[BillB1960]

I agree. But I've also known at least ten guys who went to Nashville to become professional songwriters or sidemen with touring singers - one who went there to work as a blues session guitarist but became a middle school principal instead - whose first jobs in town were working at the Gibson factory. They weren't experienced craftsmen when they were hired, either.

It's a fascinating subject, and it'll be really interesting to see how it continues to develop.

I realize this is tantamount to blasphemy on a Les Paul forum but anyone who thinks Gibson Les Pauls are "handcrafted" is fooling themselves. They're made on CNC machines one right after the other on a large production line. Take a look at the Gibson factory videos and it's pretty obvious. There are specific steps taken during production particularly in the finish area which make a Gibson a Gibson and there are probably fewer shortcuts taken than the guitars churned out by the Chinese but it's still mass production not hand craftsmenship.

 

[HOT-BRIT]

the counterfeiters want to know what incorrect features we notice when we look at there fakes

 

[DLChance]

diminishing returns (economics) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia

The more expensive the raw materials, the closer their prices must get to Gibson prices, and the fewer guitars they will sell, meaning that those more expensive materials are even less affordable.

But the good wood isn't necessarily more expensive for them. I understand the law of diminishing returns, but I also understand the law of supply and demand; and with the Lacey Act lowering demand in the biggest guitar market in the world, artificially creating an over-supply, there's no good reason (from their point of view) that Chinese builders shouldn't go on using the good stuff as long as they can get it.

I'm not commenting on the right or wrong of it, that's just the way I see it.

As far as high-quality hardware and electronics, the same concept applies: The Chinese can manufacture them as well as anyone anywhere if they want to. The way the Japanese did.

When the Squires first came out in the '80s, they were made in Japan. I got a Strat, and it was as good as any Fender I'd ever played before or since. It was stolen in the late 1990s, and the remains were found along with other stolen guitars in a burned-out car south of Dallas, so I applied the insurance money to a squareneck Dobro instead of replacing it with a Chinese Squire. It was a LOT better than the Chinese Squires available now.

I don't know what it costs to produce a Gibson Les Paul, or what their wholesale mark-up is, so I'm not sure how the law of diminishing returns applies to Gibsons. But the same law applies to Chinese copies selling for less than $400, and they couldn't stay in business if they weren't satisfied with the profit margin.

 

[BillB1960]

the counterfeiters want to know what incorrect features we notice when we look at there fakes

They already know. They don't care.

 

[Leep]

Y'know, after reading ALL of your posts Leep, No, I don't think your hearts in the right place, & I think you're exactly who we don't want to know these things. I've been complaining lately about some older members running new members off, but please feel free to leave us any time your heart desires. Like...Now.

"Heart's in the right place" I assume all you have in life is these forums, poor guy, feel bad for you.
I'm not going to leave this place anytime soon, you're welcome to suck it anytime you feel like doing so : )
Offtopic: have only openned 2 threads, this one and another helping me find out more about the Traditional's Pro pickups.


Ontopic: added tips that were commented.

 

[colchar]

I'm not going to leave this place anytime soon, you're welcome to suck it anytime you feel like doing so : )

Keep telling people to suck it and I bet the mods will decide you are leaving a lot quicker than you think there Skippy.

 

[colchar]

the counterfeiters want to know what incorrect features we notice when we look at there fakes

No they don't. They aren't cruising forums reading our posts and, being Chinese, probably wouldn't understand us even if they did.

They have real Gibsons to use as templates, we are not their source of information.

 

[Leep]

This happens frequently... I wouldn't call it a fake if one knob was off kilter.

I know Gibson's quality control's been terrible for a couple of years now but I don't think any of their inspectors would miss a knob, if they really do miss a knob (off kilter) I think half of Gibson's "Regulars" would stop purchasing their guitars knowing their inspectors couldn't spot something a 3 year old would just by looking at a guitar.

 

[Leep]

Keep telling people to suck it and I bet the mods will decide you are leaving a lot quicker than you think there Skippy.

"Keep telling to people to suck it"
Have only wrote it once, got bullied in first grade I assume? learn to count.

 

[Leep]

the counterfeiters want to know what incorrect features we notice when we look at there fakes

I highly doubt these so-called "Luthiers" in China get paid enough to feed themselves after hours of work, I highly doubt they'd be able to afford their internet in order to even check on MLP, unless it's USA/Japanese fakes we're talking about.

 

[rockstar232007]

No they don't. They aren't cruising forums reading our posts and, being Chinese, probably wouldn't understand us even if they did.

They have real Gibsons to use as templates, we are not their source of information.

This.

I could post numerous links to WAY more accurat information (schematics/templates, etc), than what can be found here. But, I don't think the server could handle it?

We (MLP) could show them first-hand, how to build an accurate replica from the ground up, but they still would't do it, because A.) it would take too long for them to source the proper materials, B.) it would cost more money, and C.) it would take them longer to sell them.

As I said before, it's simple economics - quantity>quality.