Thoughts on my problem? Introducing relief into an older guitar with too low action?

[Rod Neep]

Yeah, I'll futz with it some more tonight. Problem is if I raise it any more then my intonation goes out and I only have a 1.5mm allen key, not a 1mm to adjust the saddles.

If my intonation goes out I need to adjust the saddles forward/backwards, not up or down, correct?


Thanks for your attention, folks.

Intonation is a different "problem" entirely.
1) Get the action right first by raising the bridge
2) If needed adjust the relief with the truss rod to give a tiny amount of bow

3. Then.... adjust the saddles forwards/backwards to get the intonation right.

In that order.

Rod

 

[EDS1275]

Bingo. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is what is needed.

There is a general miscomprehension about action.
Action is adjusted by:
1. making the bridge higher or lower
2. making the slots in the nut higher or lower
3. altering the angle of the neck to the body (i.e. a neck reset)

Adjustment of the truss rod is NOT for altering the action.

Adjustment of the truss rod is for altering the neck relief. i.e. the amount of curve in the neck.

maybe thats more technical semantics however as the other guys say, if i have made all the firsthand adjusting to make my ideal action, and then the neck tightens up or loosens over the course of a year, the only variable thats more or less changed is a truss adjustment to get my action back in order

 

[SemiHollowCarrot]

Intonation is a different "problem" entirely.
1) Get the action right first by raising the bridge
2) If needed adjust the relief with the truss rod to give a tiny amount of bow

3. Then.... adjust the saddles forwards/backwards to get the intonation right.

In that order.

Rod

#2 sadly isn't much of an option.

Thanks!

 

[Cjsinla]

Raise the thumb wheels under the bridge, they are screwed all the way down. That should have no effect on intonation. No wrenches are needed, only a thumb and forefinger.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

Is it the photo or are the frets really that low and flat?

 

[LtDave32]

A fret level and crown will do you wonders.

It will put the guitar right, and enable you to play with whatever action you desire, and bend without choked-notes, buzzes and fret-out.

Get the frets leveled, recrowned and polished first, then set the action to where you want it.

 

[pickerrr]

Raise the saddles, if the saddles can not be raised, raise the whole bridge(thumbwheels).
Yeah, your frets are almost square on the crown...

 

[Z2112]

Carrot. Trust me on this. I had a similar experience with my 85 LP Standard w/ Shaw pickups. I ended up putting in longer stronger springs to keep the pickups from rocking and lowered them down until I could hear the sweet spot.
I can see in the photos that the bridge pickup is way to high and also not level with the plane/ angle of the strings . The magnets in the pickups are simply to close to the strings causing them to pull on the strings and therefore vibrate less.
You definitely need to adjust the bridge correctly. I think you have more than one issue going on with the guitar.
You may want to post this in the luthier's corner section. Lots of knowledgeable people in there.

 

[Biddlin]

"#2 sadly isn't much of an option. "
Why not?

 

[Rod Neep]

maybe thats more technical semantics however as the other guys say, if i have made all the firsthand adjusting to make my ideal action, and then the neck tightens up or loosens over the course of a year, the only variable thats more or less changed is a truss adjustment to get my action back in order

No No No No No
An adjustable truss rod is not there to change the action. It is there to change the neck relief.

If over the course of a year, or even season to season, the action changes, then it is the BRIDGE that needs adjusting. That's why may players of acoustics keep two saddles. One for winter and one for summer.

Rod

 

[foxtrot]

But neck relief isn't independent of action, and if seasonal changes cause a change in relief, affecting action and causing buzz, why not tweak the relief so it's back where it was?

 

[Biddlin]

.... That's why may players of acoustics keep two saddles. One for winter and one for summer.
Rod

Seems like a lot of bother, for just a couple of weeks, use!
;>)/

 

[twilliams]

Is it the photo or are the frets really that low and flat?

This! Those frets look extremely low and flat. A flat top fret will buzz like a bumble bee

 

[EDS1275]

But neck relief isn't independent of action, and if seasonal changes cause a change in relief, affecting action and causing buzz, why not tweak the relief so it's back where it was?

yeah, i would suppose what most people refer to as action, is the combination of neck relief, bridge height and if need be a grind and polish and proper nut depth.

however, our friend rod is schooling me/us on the proper definition when adjusting just one of those components. hence fiddling with the bridge = action, turning truss rod = neck relief, etc etc.

iow, to me/us, action is the house. but rod is saying, 'no, no...the bit where you take this hunk of metal on a stick in one hand then repeatedly whack the top of another long thin piece of metal into a piece of wood, is called 'hammering a nail'

 

[LtDave32]

yeah, i would suppose what most people refer to as action, is the combination of neck relief, bridge height and if need be a grind and polish and proper nut depth.

however, our friend rod is schooling me/us on the proper definition when adjusting just one of those components. hence fiddling with the bridge = action, turning truss rod = neck relief, etc etc.

iow, to me/us, action is the house. but rod is saying, 'no, no...the bit where you take this hunk of metal on a stick in one hand then repeatedly whack the top of another long thin piece of metal into a piece of wood, is called 'hammering a nail'

Much better off to get the frets level, crowned and in order before attempting to remedy by tweaking here and there. Start getting the basics in order, then tweak it to where you want it.

 

[foxtrot]

Much better off to get the frets level, crowned and in order before attempting to remedy by tweaking here and there. Start getting the basics in order, then tweak it to where you want it.

Ya, here the frets (and nut, if it needs it) should be sorted out first. Then proper relief and action, followed by intonation.

 

[eddie_bowers]

There is PLENTY of upward play in the bridge. I have an 84 with the same trem. Yours looks like it is as low as it can go. If you lil your action higher then raise it.
If your fretting out on the high frets, relief isn't your problem.
Most likely you have a low bridge and some worn (lower) frets in the middle.
My 84 has those factory low frets, but there is still plenty of meat on them for leveling.

 

[SemiHollowCarrot]

Def has some frets I'm not used to (fat and wide).

I cranked up the bridge a little bit and that seems to have made a good bit of difference so far. I think my intonation is a bit sharp but lo and behold my tuner's battery went out last night and I don't trust the accuracy of my iPhone tuner.