This is why we cannot have Brazilian Rosewood any more

RufusTelestrat

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Hmm seems like they could make a lot of finger boards.


So apparently Cities is more interested in saving the rain forest than the country who owns the land.
 

Pageburst

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I see little in the way of direct corollary between the article and your subject line.

The major guitar manufacturers: Martin, Gibson, Fender phased out the use of Brazilian Rosewood in their production guitars by the late 60s.

Regardless, Guitars represent less than 1% of all harvested wood. Maybe your proclamation would be more appropriate on forums that discuss construction materials, or furniture building. However, fluency in Mandarin might be helpful.
 

PierM

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Rosewood isnt even mentioned.

Business around that wood has really nothing to do with guitar fretboards....
 

ARandall

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It doesn't matter what proportion guitars use......the wanton destruction of forests the article describes, and the fact that injudicious logging destroys habitat is precisely the reason why endangered species must be protected. CITES is a good thing - no matter who would otherwise use the end product.
 

Jared Purdy

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It doesn't matter what proportion guitars use......the wanton destruction of forests the article describes, and the fact that injudicious logging destroys habitat is precisely the reason why endangered species must be protected. CITES is a good thing - no matter who would otherwise use the end product.
Exactly.
 

RufusTelestrat

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That is my point. World wide we acknowledge both the scarcity of resources and the rarity of a biom like the rain forest in the amazon. Effort is made to prevent deforestation and over harvesting of these natural resources. We all suffer under CITIES rules and its limitation on the availability to get even non BZ rosewood.
Then these clowns simply clear cut what ever lumber from whatever trees they want ship around the world and when questioned just say "Ok that is authorized here is a form"

The reason I find it relevant to our Reissue discussion is we all know Gibson went through a huge issue with wood sourcing a few years ago, and now it becomes OOPS. We complain about accuracy of a Knob or switch washer, but I would pay the extra for the fingerboard, if it were not double or triple the price. These sales hurt all of us, because in the big picture of things there is a finite amount of old growth wood, and it is going somewhere, clearly not to guitars.
 

Pete M

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I'm pretty sure all the major manufacturers gave up using Brazilian rosewood in the 60's because supplies were drying up. The furniture and perfume industry probably had way more to do with rosewood nearing extinction before that. These days I'd think mature trees are a rarity.
 

Sct13

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That wood went to places like China, who don't give a rats ass about the planet. they have a very hungry economy. We do too...this should make any wood importers very nervous about where their supply is ACTUALLY coming from.

I dont want to get all Green here but that rain forest needs protection from its own Government apparantly....
 

Pageburst

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it matters given the title of the post. Support for saving the rainforest is a straw man argument. who on this forum thinks destroying the rainforests is a good thing? No one.

Saving the rainforests is something we all agree on. however the inference that a person purchasing a guitar with a brazilian Rosewood fretboard is somehow contributing to its destruction is erroneous,

at a time when twisted headlines and manipulated facts are used to create false equivalencies and propagate certain narratives, accuracy and integrity in words and language is important.

the benefits of Cites was never the topic of this post and maybe it should be. Cites got some backlash by guitar players for certain unintended consequences such as the wholesale destruction of instruments and making travel cumbersome, complicated and costly for musicians who take along their own rosewood instruments. It appears these issues were sufficiently addressed in a revision of Cites. It is nice to see that Cites is doing what it was designed to do and offering another level of protection as many non first world countries are still unfortunately plagued by high levels of corruption.




It doesn't matter what proportion guitars use......the wanton destruction of forests the article describes, and the fact that injudicious logging destroys habitat is precisely the reason why endangered species must be protected. CITES is a good thing - no matter who would otherwise use the end product.
 

RAG7890

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it matters given the title of the post. Support for saving the rainforest is a straw man argument. who on this forum thinks destroying the rainforests is a good thing? No one.

Saving the rainforests is something we all agree on. however the inference that a person purchasing a guitar with a brazilian Rosewood fretboard is somehow contributing to its destruction is erroneous,

at a time when twisted headlines and manipulated facts are used to create false equivalencies and propagate certain narratives, accuracy and integrity in words and language is important.

the benefits of Cites was never the topic of this post and maybe it should be. Cites got some backlash by guitar players for certain unintended consequences such as the wholesale destruction of instruments and making travel cumbersome, complicated and costly for musicians who take along their own rosewood instruments. It appears these issues were sufficiently addressed in a revision of Cites. It is nice to see that Cites is doing what it was designed to do and offering another level of protection as many non first world countries are still unfortunately plagued by high levels of corruption.
In really simple, basic terms I read the OP as meaning precisely that...............we can't have BRW anymore because of all the shit that is happening. If Humans were not so stupid we could still use BRW.

I'd love to know exactly what happened to all of the MGRW that was seized a while back?



:cheers2:
 

RufusTelestrat

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@RAG7890 You are correct. My point is world around we have responsible users and then profiteers.
Lets look at one wood only: Ebony. Bob Taylor supposedly changed the game by buying the lease on the last legal plantation in Madagascar. He specifically dictated that if it is cut it gets used. Black, streaked or otherwise it is ebony.
Yes more expensive for dark but that is that. Yet Gibson uses richlight unless its a 5k -6k MTM. On the other hand you can get a hundred other Ebony boards from the far east, even on Epiphones, and many others. Where is that ebony coming from? To me it seems that rules apply for those who follow rules, otherwise it is fair game until you get caught, or simply pay a large enough bribe.
 

jamman

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OK , having seen this post(while I logged in to reply to am PM) I felt a need to add something to the mix . Much of what is posted in the OP's link is correct , but I'd add, the link is Very non specific to the amounts of wood (which I think is very important ) And , what is left out , is WHY it is being done ? ( did not read the whole thing ,just skimmed it )

From what I can ascertain here , (I'd like not to get into Politics , But ....) The advanced Deforestation is a clear reaction to the Actions of the USA and it's current Administration . Opportunity.... to get what the USA had ...(feed many who now buy those products from Brazil ,,, the USA WAS selling ,but can't now (and you are just giving Billions away to farmers to get votes )
The Amazon lands clear cut are being turned into FARMS ..... This is a "pro-business" mind set here and most /many(that I've talked with are OK with it). JUST like in the USA .... Whatever is takes to make $$$$ is "good" . (Plus if you don't use an opportunity that's stands in front of you (and you need it , you need to check yourself) BTW I am not defending this , only pointing it out .

After talking with some Brazilians here ,(not a scientific survey) Many, feel that it is better to have Brazil cut and sell and get the profits from the products gotten from cutting/clearing more/ bigger parts the Amazon then to let outside companies from other Counties do it . And walk away with all the profits (less the pay-offs) .

Yes it is short sighted , But from many workers , making $$$ today is what is important .

Every action ,,,, Equal and opposite reaction .... Look at the big picture .....
Seems that those in power and big $$$ are now controlling more and more of everything .... Geed ,,,, And they don't give a rats ass about anyone or the future . Only the next quarters earning and in other places , how much they can make for themselves ....
 

Mickey_C

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1st world citizens:

"We need to preserve your natural resources for the good of the planet!"

3rd world citizens:

"What part of being poor are you failing to understand?"
 

Rando375

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1st world citizens:

"We need to preserve your natural resources for the good of the planet!"

3rd world citizens:

"What part of being poor are you failing to understand?"
Well said.

See the source image
 

NorlinBlackBeauty

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That wood went to places like China, who don't give a rats ass about the planet. they have a very hungry economy. We do too...this should make any wood importers very nervous about where their supply is ACTUALLY coming from.
The Chinese demand SOLID rosewood, furniture and the like. Veneered furniture is not good enough.

Yeah, they are THE worst for using rare and endangered resources. It is a status symbol of gluttony from what I have read.

Assholes.
 

Pageburst

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Yes, i see your point. Due to decades of neglectful over harvesting of the rainforest, Brazilian rosewood is no longer a tenable rosewood choice for the major guitar makers.

I thought that is what the OP might be suggesting. However, I did not want to believe that the OP was actually making that point, The scarcity of Brazilian rosewood as it relates to guitar manufacture is an inconvenience and negligible next to the far bigger environmental impact of rainforest destruction.

with that said, it’s hard to dictate to foreign nations what to do with their resources. That is why i am supportive of the spirit of Cites as an approach to addressing this. Unfortunately, if just the “West”: USA, Europe, Japan abides by these rules, their effectiveness will be negated as verified by the article the OP sites. Clearly, the appetite for ”illegal” lumber still remains unabated.

Without, getting political, preserving the environment is something that benefits everyone and i think at least abstractly, everyone supports. However, it’s hard to tell a person in a developing country that he or she has to pay a carbon offset tax or buy a Tesla.

There is unequivocal scientific proof that trees offset carbon emissions which is why coordinated wide scale tree plantings together with preserving and increasing our existing rainforest appears to be the least disruptive and most effective way of addressing some of our most pressing environmental challanges. That is why i am a big supporter of rainforest preservation. Frankly, fretboard woods, never entered my mind.



In really simple, basic terms I read the OP as meaning precisely that...............we can't have BRW anymore because of all the shit that is happening. If Humans were not so stupid we could still use BRW.

I'd love to know exactly what happened to all of the MGRW that was seized a while back?



:cheers2:
 

diogoguitar

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These sales hurt all of us, because in the big picture of things there is a finite amount of old growth wood, and it is going somewhere, clearly not to guitars.
It is truly unfortunate that the harvest was so abused to a point where we can't use it even in a 1/8" thick slab. I agree that this is the price we pay for unsustainable harvest.

I guess we have to just accept alternatives.

Unfortunately, if just the “West”: USA, Europe, Japan abides by these rules, their effectiveness will be negated as verified by the article the OP sites. Clearly, the appetite for ”illegal” lumber still remains unabated.

[...]it’s hard to tell a person in a developing country that he or she has to pay a carbon offset tax or buy a Tesla.
You're spot on. It's hard to stop the wood harvesting if this will bring money to a starving economy. The best way to go about this is through regulation in the demand. What Brazil is not doing unfortunately is to give option to these starving economies.

I grew up In Brazil and can tell you the leadership isn't doing anything to give these people a chance to have another option. Without getting too utopian, they should invest in sustainable harvest of other goods and double up basic education. These two things would open doors to so many other things.
 
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