"The Searchers" is an awesome movie and "Fort Apache" kicks ass. The Duke is an icon and no one can convince me otherwise.

Kamen_Kaiju

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Just checked, Amazon streaming has a TON of JWayne movies. Bookmarked a few. I've seen True Grit and a few others but can always see some more.

Interesting thread!
 

LocoTex

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About John Wayne's racist statments. It was 1971 and society hadn't fully changed then. (Perhaps it hasn't fully changed now!) I've heard several racist statements by Lyndon Johnson back before he became POTUS. Yet he signed into law the most comprehensive civil rights laws to date. My view is that people can and do change their beliefs.

Lyndon Johnson did not sign the 1964 Civil Rights act out of altruism. He signed it to, as he said, "Get the "n-word vote" for the next 200 years."

"These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference." - LBJ on the Civil Rights Act.

Johnson's racist views never did change. He just made a very cynical move for votes. Any good that came out of it was just incidental to what he intended it to do.
 

MikeyTheCat

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Just checked, Amazon streaming has a TON of JWayne movies. Bookmarked a few. I've seen True Grit and a few others but can always see some more.

Interesting thread!

True Grit and Rooster Coburn go together. Rio Bravo and El Diablo are the same movie made twice, but both are really fun. Three Godfathers is really good, as is Fort Apache and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.

Stage Coach is a must see.
 

Bill Hicklin

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Lyndon Johnson did not sign the 1964 Civil Rights act out of altruism. He signed it to, as he said, "Get the "n-word vote" for the next 200 years."

"These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference." - LBJ on the Civil Rights Act.

Johnson's racist views never did change. He just made a very cynical move for votes. Any good that came out of it was just incidental to what he intended it to do.


Unlike Johnson, I don't think Wayne was a racist, although he expressed himself in a way that had 1971's version of the Politically Correct up in arms (but represented the thinking of perhaps 2/3 of the country at the time.)

There's no indication that he ever judged people on or off the set except as individuals (unless they were Communists), or supported segregation. He was, rather obviously, against tokenism and affirmative action; yet we have to realize from our position of chronological snobbery that in 1971 his argument had a certain pragmatic force. 1971. Most southern states had only desegregated their schools just the year before. Most schools and universities generally had only done so in the last half-decade since the Civil Rights Act, and the de facto desegregation of most northern cities by busing still lay in the future. In short, the majority of African-Americans at that time had not received decent educations. While that fact was lamentable, it was nonetheless fact, and there was no wishing it away on the grounds that "it shouldn't be so, therefore we decree it isn't so." And that's before getting to the moral argument against, which the passing of time doesn't affect.
 
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pnuggett

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Lyndon Johnson did not sign the 1964 Civil Rights act out of altruism. He signed it to, as he said, "Get the "n-word vote" for the next 200 years."

"These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference." - LBJ on the Civil Rights Act.

Johnson's racist views never did change. He just made a very cynical move for votes. Any good that came out of it was just incidental to what he intended it to do.


The more things change the more they stay the same.
 

WaywerdSon

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Lyndon Johnson did not sign the 1964 Civil Rights act out of altruism. He signed it to, as he said, "Get the "n-word vote" for the next 200 years."

"These Negroes, they're getting pretty uppity these days and that's a problem for us since they've got something now they never had before, the political pull to back up their uppityness. Now we've got to do something about this, we've got to give them a little something, just enough to quiet them down, not enough to make a difference." - LBJ on the Civil Rights Act.

Johnson's racist views never did change. He just made a very cynical move for votes. Any good that came out of it was just incidental to what he intended it to do.
One can make the arguement that the outcome of this legislation set back the progress of minorities in this country for decades and has led to the current situation we find ourselves in
 

SteveGangi

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Wayne's story in WW2 is a bit more complicated than that. First off, yes, he was draft-exempt, being 34 years old with 5 kids.

But the charge is then made, "Well, he should have volunteered like Clark Gable and Jimmy Stewart and so on."

The thing is, Wayne wanted to. But Republic Pictures had him locked into a contract which included an in terrorem clause- if Wayne joined the Army or otherwise failed to make movies for Republic, the liquidated damages would have wiped him out.

So Wayne tried a workaround: his good friend and frequent director John Ford was on the LA County draft board- and Wayne had Ford surreptitiously (and illegally) change his draft classification from 2D to 1A - yes this included falsifying his age on a government document. If Wayne was drafted, Cohn and Republic wouldn't have a case. But somehow the stunt leaked, Wayne was reclassified 2D, and that was that.
True. He was NOT a draft dodger, as some people have tried to claim.
 

SteveGangi

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I won't get deep into the WWII stuff, because Bill Hicklin already laid it out better than I could, but here's John Wayne's application to the OSS. He was accepted into Field Photographic Unit but the letter was sent to his ex-wife's house and she never told him. He wanted in there and a combination of red tape and bad luck kept him out.

Anyway, as to the appeal of the Duke...

To me it doesn't matter if he doesn't have range. In fact if he had range I don't think he would be as possible. John Wayne was an icon because he played pretty much the same role every time. You watch a John Wayne movie to watch the Duke do Duke things.

In a way it's similar to Charlie Chaplin's Tramp character. Or Clint Eastwood in pretty everything he did. Or Schwarzenegger in his heyday. You're watching for the persona.

And the Duke's screen persona (which friends and colleagues insist was reflected off-screen as well) was just the ultimate in manhood. He was strong and tough but he could always soften up for the right woman, and be warm and fatherly to children. He never backed down from a fight but he never started them either. He had deep respect and empathy for the Native Americans, which often put him at odds to more ignorant, bureaucratic-types. He was independent and self-sufficient, and let people go about in their own way. Never a coward, never a crybaby, never weak. It's a presence that permeates his films.

The first John Wayne movie I ever saw was Fort Apache. I'd just gotten into Westerns through Red Dead Redemption but I had zero familiarity with the Duke. I didn't know what he looked like, sounded like, all I knew is he was the guy from the real old Westerns that nobody talks about anymore. Well Fort Apache came on TCM so I watched it. The whole beginning of the movie I'm asking myself, "is that John Wayne?" No that's Henry Fonda, no thats John Agar, no thats Victor McLaglen, no that's Ward Bond, no that's George O'Brien. Then a big burly guy walks into frame, towers over everybody and speaks. And instantly I knew that's John Wayne.
Living in LA, I've know a few people who met him. Nobodies really, as far as "the biz" goes.

But every single one of them said he was one of the nicest guys they ever met.
 

Barnaby

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Living in LA, I've know a few people who met him. Nobodies really, as far as "the biz" goes.

But every single one of them said he was one of the nicest guys they ever met.

Y'know, I've often heard this sort of thing from those who know famous people, and especially ones who tend to be represented otherwise in the media. I've met a few well-known folks over the years and they've generally been nothing like their public image. I've even got a brother who is on TV fairly often as a political commentator and you should see the stuff people write about him on Twitter after an appearance. Of course, what usually happens is that the studio will film a couple of hours and cut for controversy, so context is lost along the way. When I ask him about it, he shrugs and says it's just the media game.

For all the hate and controversy that is being stirred up worldwide at the moment, for all of the attempts to categorize and polarize, I have generally found that, if one takes the time to sit down with someone who may have views that differ sharply from one's own for a while and listen to them - really listen - then it turns out that they're fundamentally decent and trying to make sense of the world, just like you, me and everyone else.

I don't mean to derail the thread. I just want to say that, no matter how he may have been depicted and interpreted as a public figure, and how much subsequent recontextualizing and deconstruction of his role in popular culture is taking place even today, I'm sure you're exactly right and that John Wayne was a really sincere, nice guy.
 

marksoundguitars

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Early in Duke's career, this one is a lot of fun. Moustache-twirling bad guy, crazy stunts, eye-rolling plot. And Gabby Hayes.

 

Pop1655

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More hydrocodone, another muscle relaxer and just dialed up Stagecoach. This is a very useful thread.
 

Bill Hicklin

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Stagecoach has one of the most incredible and dangerous horse stunts ever put on film -where legendary stuntman Yakima Canutt leaps from horse to horse, and then falls under their hooves and the thundering coach. (This was before safety rules).

___________________________

Stagecoach also represents - now this is amazing - 100% of Orson Welles' directorial education. In preparation for making Citizen Kane (Welles had never made or even worked on a movie, he was a stage and radio actor) he rented a copy of Stagecoach and watched it backwards and forwards over and over again, figuring out how Ford framed shots, moved cameras, lit scenes and edited his shots together.
 

Tim Fezziwig

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Living in LA, I've know a few people who met him. Nobodies really, as far as "the biz" goes.

But every single one of them said he was one of the nicest guys they ever met.
S, I MUST see people behind closed doors. He was an actor. Probably was killing chickens naked and beating up prostitutes on his "off" time.
 

OldBenKenobi

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One small thing I respect about the Duke is he didn't give a crap about being bald. He wore a toupee publicly but only as part of his image, and he never hid the fact that he wore it.

 

Kamen_Kaiju

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Stagecoach also represents - now this is amazing - 100% of Orson Welles' directorial education. In preparation for making Citizen Kane (Welles had never made or even worked on a movie, he was a stage and radio actor) he rented a copy of Stagecoach and watched it backwards and forwards over and over again, figuring out how Ford framed shots, moved cameras, lit scenes and edited his shots together.

Must've been a rich guys privilege right? How did you rent a movie before VHS and Blockbuster existed?
 

mtgguitar

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Honey, I'm open anythin'
I don't know where to draw the line
I'm makin' bets that you gonna get
John Wayne before he dies

Yeah, you're a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
Yeah, a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
A star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star

Jagger Richards.
Star, Star
 

Tim Fezziwig

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Honey, I'm open anythin'
I don't know where to draw the line
I'm makin' bets that you gonna get
John Wayne before he dies

Yeah, you're a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
Yeah, a star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star
A star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star fucker, star

Jagger Richards.
Star, Star
m,top ten Berry fiff,NOBODY plays Chuck like Keith.
 

pnuggett

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Stagecoach has one of the most incredible and dangerous horse stunts ever put on film -where legendary stuntman Yakima Canutt leaps from horse to horse, and then falls under their hooves and the thundering coach. (This was before safety rules).

___________________________



 

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