The most important tube in your amp.

[dCi_king]

Hi everybody. Last month I changed all the tubes in my Marshall amp and I found this, which helped me a lot, so I want to share it with you:




"The most important tube in your amp? The Phase inverter!
Many people think that V1 (the first gain stage) is the most important tube in an amp. This is
true in some cases but not in all cases. V1 (usually the preamp tube closest to the input jack)
has the largest impact on your tone and gain but has less impact on your output distortion touch
dynamics and output stage distortion than the phase inverter. The phase inverter is generally
the preamp tube that is the most close to your output tubes in most amps.
Let’s think about this for a moment. Today’s amps come in many “flavors”. There are three
basic amp topologies looking at things from one viewpoint.


• Non Master volume amplifiers
• Master volume amplifiers
• Channel switching amplifiers


In master volume amps we have pre and post phase inverter master volume controls. These
work differently but for this piece of writing I will put them in the same master volume category.
Rolling down the master does what? It allows the front end to be driven harder and thus we
hear our front end distort. At some point we can drive some amps so hard in the front end that
the tone becomes so compressed and distorted that even I can sound like a decent player! Your
mistakes are covered up in the mush and distortion of ti all. This distortion is passed down the
signal chain where it is reproduced and amplified by the output stage of the amp. This has
nothing to do with output stage distortion. This type of distortion is not touch sensitive. This
type of distortion is not something that most articulate players would favor for a sweet tone,
blues tone, or even classic rock tones. This is NOT what people refer to as the “brown sound”.
Channel switching amps. Many of these amps have so much “junk” in the signal path that
hearing tube changes in V1 is a pretty hopeless endeavor. When you do hear a change it is
because the tube is closer to industry spec than another tube may have been. If you want to
hear different great tones from swapping out V1 then listen to the tube under test in a more
classic amp design.


Channel switchers continued. I get calls and letters all the time where people have a “bonzo-3
channel gripmaster Mk III recto” or whatever. Many owners of these amps say: “the owner’s
manual says that V3 is used for the turbo channel” or whatever. Remember, V1 feeds
EVERYTHING else down the line, EVEN IN THESE AMPS. The “turbo channel” generally does not
use JUST V3. The chain is fed by V1. V1, even in multi channel amps is still the most important
tube in the TONE AND GAIN stage of most amps. If you want to change the ratio of preamp
tube distortion to output tube distortion then we change V1 in some cases. Going from a 12AX7
to a 5751 will reduce front end gain. Going down to a 12AY7 will reduce the front end gain
further and generally give one more clean headroom.
Back to the phase inverter. Taking a simple classis non-master volume amp (but this is the
same for master volume amps as well actually).
I will try to keep things simple here with a few basics. If you have questions on all the complex
versions feel free to contact me.
Fender Tolex era amps – These generally used a 12AT7 in the phase inverter.
Marshall type amps – These generally used a 12AX7 in the phase inverter.
There are many other differences in these amps but I will stick to the PI (phase inverter).


Some basic tube facts
• 12AX7
o Has a published spec gain of 100
o Has a publishes spec current output of 1.2 milliamps
• 12AT7
o Has a published spec gain of 60-70
o Has a published spec current output of 10.0 milliamps (ten times that of the 12AX7
as a side note)


As a third example, a 5751 has a gain which is almost identical to the 12AT7 but it’s standing
current is 1.0 milliamps (about the same as the 12AX7). But, there is a third factor,
transconductance, to be considered. The 5751 has a transconductance of about 1200. A
12AX7 has a “TC” of about 1600 and a 12AT7 has a TC over 5000. These three tubes act quite
differently. A 5751 and 12AX7 are much more closely related than the 5751 and 12AT7.
We will stick to the basic 12AX7 and 12AT7.
When you push your amp hard it is not as much the output tubes distorting as it is the
phase inverter breaking down and distorting. We are talking output stage distortion here.
We are not talking about how you may have messed up the signal with preamp tube distortion
and compression already. The phase inverter may be the hardest worked tube in most
amps. I cannot begin to count the times when I have found phase inverters that were long past
their service life. When you change your output tubes change that phase inverter. At the least
change it every other output tube change.


Many folks think that when they want to have their amp have more clean headroom they can
insert a 12AT7 in place of the 12AX7. Very true. (By the way, the 12AT7 in a first gain stage is
an awful tone generator in a guitar amp. If you want to drop front end gain use a 5751 (gain of
60-70) or a 12AY7 (gain of 40). The 12AY7 was the first gain stage in the classic Fender Tweed
Bassman, Deluxe, etc.
Going from a 12AX7 to a 12AT7 in the PI (phase inverter) will yield a change in output tube
distortion, touch, and output dynamics in most amps. Is this because the gain is lower in the
12AT7? 10% yes perhaps. The lower gain is a factor but the larger factors are:


• We have almost 10 times the current available to drive the output tubes before the phase
inverter starts to break down.
• We have a transconductance of 5500 vs 1600 of the 12AX7. Keeping this simple, it
means it takes a lot less input signal for a given output signal.


The output tubes are less important than many folks may think. Think about this. In the
Hi-Fi world there have been many amplifier designs. Some such as the Scott and Fisher lines
used EL-84 output tubes. McIntosh used 6L6 and 6550 / KT88 tubes. Dynaco and some British
amps used EL-34 tubes. All of these amps, when operated at the rated specs generally stated
that from 20-20,000 cycles at .5% distortion or less they were considered “flat” by industry spec.
The output tube type had very little to do with anything. In guitar amps we purposely push the
output tube beyond their design limits to make them distort. The difference between a Svetlana
6L6 and an RCA 6L6 is the difference in the way the tube sounds when it is pushed beyond it’s
design limits. Being in the “tube business” this is not a great subject. What I am basically
saying here is: Before you go to a pricy output set of tubes and a possible need to rebias the
amp think about a simple phase inverter change. There are no amp adjustments necessary when
you change the phase inverter.


In real life we rarely get to the point of pushing our output tubes to their limits. Our front end is
going into distortion. Our phase inverter is breaking down too. The ratio of this front end
distortion to phase inverter drive and breakdown is determined by amplifier design topology. You
cannot make a Marshall into a Fender no matter how many people tell you that this can be done.
Putting 6L6 tubes in a Marshall will NOT make it sound like a Fender either.
There are many 12AX7 types of tubes available. They are all different even though they are
supposed to have the same specs. Even when one looks at the same tube type from the same
maker out of the same production run we find HUGE variances. +/- 50% off spec is common.
Most 12AX7s today show a current output of 0.6-0.8 milliamps where 1.2 milliamps is expected.
You throw a 12AX7 in your PI slot with a 0.8mA output and you are 30% down on what the amp
can do right off the bat. Your amp is not as full, tight, responsive, or just plain “powerful” or
dynamic. Many of today’s high production amps use the Sovtek 12AX7WA short plate as a
generic 12AX7. I have issues with these in the tone and gain stage but staying with the topic of
phase inverters, these are just awful (12AX7WA Sovtek) for the most part. In tests these show
very low standing current. The Ei long smooth plate also shows low standing current, even
though a long plate. Generally, large plate tubes will show higher standing current but this is not
always the case. The JJ ECC83S has the highest standing current of any current production
tube. The JJ is a short plate tube. The JJ is an exception. You might think the JJ would be a
good PI. Not from my personal taste. The way the JJ breaks down is not as musical to my ear
in most amps and I do not care for the touch response and dynamics of the tube in the PI position
in most amps. What do I like? I like the Sovtek 12AX7LPS and the GT 12AX7M. The GT
12AX7M is also available as a matched phase inverter from the SAG over at GT as the SAG-AX7-
MPI. There is also an SAG-AT7-MPI. I have talked about matched phase inverters in other
places prior to this piece of writing. The 12AX7M and 12AX7R2 (Sovtek 12AX7LPS) are both long
plate designs. In either case I check these for specs because in all cases there is a wide range of
variables from tube to tube and run to run in production.


There are a lot of great NOS tubes. They have advantages in the tone and gain stage but they
are not as available as production tubes made today. When you are on the road or on tour these
are harder to find. In the case of the phase inverter we do not want to stock a bunch of Mullards
or Telefunkens to burn up every output tube set change. There are great current production
tubes that give us all we can ask for.
Other great phase inverters to consider are the 5751, 12AY7, and 12AU7.
The bottom line here is simple. The phase inverter is one of the most important tubes in your
amp and the hardest worked tube in the preamp section of your amp. It is how this tube breaks
down that provides your output stage distortion tone, character, and amp feel.



Myles S. Rose "



Hope you find it as interesting as I found.

 

[8len8]

Too long...

 

[dCi_king]

Too long...

If I have read more than 25 pages, in a few hours, of the Marshall forum in order to adjust the bias in another language that is not my mother language, I do not think it is much for you. Maybe you don't need this yet. Who knows in the future?...


Greetings

 

[Marshall & Moonshine]

So much bullish!t in there, that I wouldn't know where to begin. Putting channel switching amps as another category from mv/nmv amps, saying channel switchers can't sound good because of all the stuff in the signal path. Preamp distortion basically isn't good, putting classic rock tones (of which there are too many to imagine) on the opposite end of "sweet"...
The list goes on and on and on, but I'm not gonna do it on my phone.
Yes the PI matters. There is some good info there, like basic truths.
But the most important tube in the amp is the "all of them".

 

[KenG]

A lot of people simply don't understand electronics & can't read schematics to save their lives.
Look at many tube amp schematics and if you actually understand what you're looking at you'd realize that in the majority of classic designs the volume controls do not control gain. The gain of each stage in an amp is fixed by the tube and components directly connected to the plate, grid or cathode. All the volume controls (pre or master)do is tap off a portion of the output plate signal (voltage divider between plate and ground) and send it to the next stage. What this means is with a standard guitar signal applied the distortion is happening a lot later in the signal chain than many people think/assume.
I would not be so quick to disregard the article posted even though it seems to fly in the face of the mostly ill-informed myths about amplifiers.

 

[Big John]

Nailed it, M&M. Myles Rose is to guitar amps what Lynn Ellsworth is to guitar parts.

 

[ScottMarlowe]

So much bullish!t in there, that I wouldn't know where to begin.

Exactly. Lotsa hand-wavy BS surrounding a few simple truths. OTOH, that's fairly common on Tube-amp-land.

If the OP wants to read solid tube amp info without the hand-wavy BS, go to the Valve Wizard's site.

Oh and his book is fantastic reading for those who understand even fairly basic electronics and low level math etc. Written in plain English with explanations the non-tech folks can understand.

 

[sonar]

Not a bad read.

While there's some opinion that can be confused with fact, and some other bits that need supportive argument, overall the piece was written by someone who seems to understand what he's talking about.

The reason why some tech's like to replace the PI when they change power tubes is indirectly explained.

I've read worse explanations about what swapping down from a 12AX7 achieves.

I don't completely agree with his take on power tubes, although I don't think it's necessarily wrong...

again, not a bad read.

 

[redjunior]

A lot of truth. but a lot of mumbo jumbo too, If the PI is the most important tube in an amp, what makes all those single ended amps sound so sweet?
I;ve been working with tube amps for about 44 yrs,both guitar and Hifi, M&M has it just about right.

 

[Walt_T]

I once had a Navy publication from the early '70s, as I recall it was called Electronic Circuits. It was about 4" thick and was bound with 3 screws with bright blue covers.
It had all kinds of tube audio circuits, with simplified schematics that explained the how and why of every component in that circuit. Wonderful tool for a troubleshooter.
Of course it had all the other circuits that were common to the equipment of the day.
Wish I could find another copy.

 

[TheX]

I once had a Navy publication from the early '70s, as I recall it was called Electronic Circuits. It was about 4" thick and was bound with 3 screws with bright blue covers.
It had all kinds of tube audio circuits, with simplified schematics that explained the how and why of every component in that circuit. Wonderful tool for a troubleshooter.
Of course it had all the other circuits that were common to the equipment of the day.
Wish I could find another copy.

I was an AT in the '70s and had access to that book. A7-E Corsair II's still had tube gear in them. I spent years doing component level troubleshooting/repairs.

 

[X–Ray]

Thanks dCi_king for the effort put into the OP....

 

[Norton]

That Phase Inverter tube is a hard worker! Sometimes you can get way more out of an amp by making a swap there… but, The winner isn't always the higher gain tube in that position.

Hard to argue with you Marshall&Moonshine… if there's a tube crapping out anywhere it's gonna cause problems.

 

[Marshall & Moonshine]

I once had a Navy publication from the early '70s, as I recall it was called Electronic Circuits. It was about 4" thick and was bound with 3 screws with bright blue covers.
It had all kinds of tube audio circuits, with simplified schematics that explained the how and why of every component in that circuit. Wonderful tool for a troubleshooter.
Of course it had all the other circuits that were common to the equipment of the day.
Wish I could find another copy.

Is it the same one as the NEETS? There's a tube book in there, I think. Free download from the Navy.

Here you go:

http://jacquesricher.com/NEETS/14178.pdf

Hope it's the same. The Navy writes incredible engineering books. I downloaded the whole series.

 

[Mouse]

Q: Do I need to replace my driver tube every time I replace my power tubes?
A: No. This is an "old wive's tale" propagated by the tube vendors who want to sell you more tubes. The "driver" tube, or phase inverter as it is more appropriately known, is under no more stress than any of the other preamp tubes. The output stage of a normal guitar amplifier is AC-coupled, class AB1 or class A1. The "1" suffix indicates that the tubes do not draw grid current during any portion of the input cycle. A "2" suffix indicates grid current during some portion of the cycle, as in class AB2. Since almost all guitar amps are class AB1 or A1 (it takes a DC-coupled cathode-follower or interstage transformer to be able to drive the power tubes into the positive grid region), the phase inverter does not have to supply any current to the grids (it can't really source current anyway - it only sinks current through the plate load resistor, which is quite large, and inherently limits the plate current to a few mA). The AC coupling (capacitor coupling) between the phase inverter and the output tubes precludes any flow of grid current anyway. The output tube grids will merely act as a grid clamp, shifting the bias downward as the output is driven harder. This in no way stresses the phase inverter tube. In addition, the plate load resistors and the bias current in a typical phase inverter are identical to the preamp stage values, indicating that they are operating in the same area, dissipation-wise, so they cannot be "wearing out" any faster. In fact, the reverb driver tube on a typical amplifier is dissipating more power than the phase inverter, and should be replaced more often, if anything. Don't be misled by the higher plate voltage on the phase inverter either, because the cathode is usually sitting somewhere around 30V - 100V above ground, which lowers the plate-to-cathode voltage by that amount. The plate-to-cathode voltage is what determines the power dissipation of the tube, not the absolute plate voltage.''
http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/technical-q-a


btw. OP ''Many folks think that when they want to have their amp have more clean headroom they can
insert a 12AT7 in place of the 12AX7. Very true. (By the way, the 12AT7 in a first gain stage is
an awful tone generator in a guitar amp.).''
Quite the opposite, jtm45 12AT7 @ V1 position go here use decent headphones, recording is 16 channels live and guitartone you hear is right from shure sm57 mic.
P.S. If you want a great amp knowledge and info go to Aiken amps tech info or Valve Wizard site

 

[Mockbel]

My knowledge is too limited to argue on this... but I really felt offended with the statement that channel switching amps have junk in their circuits and can't sound good !!

 

[Mouse]

Not a bad read.

While there's some opinion that can be confused with fact, and some other bits that need supportive argument, overall the piece was written by someone who seems to understand what he's talking about.

The reason why some tech's like to replace the PI when they change power tubes is indirectly explained.

Working for the Groove tubes would it explain further directly in this case. At that time they just want to sell more tubes and they did. http://la-economy.blogspot.hr/2011/11/aspen-pittman-groove-tubes-legacy.html

 

[Marshall & Moonshine]

My knowledge is too limited to argue on this... but I really felt offended with the statement that channel switching amps have junk in their circuits and can't sound good !!

Some sound like ****, some sound like sex.
Others sound like ****ty sex, while others still sound like sexy ****.

 

[Splattle101]

Too long...

Lips get tired there, did they skippy?

 

[Splattle101]

[The] 12at7 (ecc 81) was the very tube the tweed bassmans circuit v1 was designed for

No, the tweed Fenders used the 12AY7 in the preamp, not the 12AT7. Unfortunately, there's no European equivalent for the 12AY7 (i.e., an ECC8? that = 12AY7), so we're stuck with old American or Japanese production for vintage, or Electroharmonix for new production. I understand that JJ have started making them, too, but I've not heard one.

P.S. If you want a great amp knowledge and info go to Aiken amps tech info or Valve Wizard site

Agree 100% on Valvewizard. Merlin Blencowe knows his stufff, is a current professional in the field of design (tube audio is a hobby for him), and is also a good bloke. Very helpful and straighforward.