The five factors which create the ‘1959 burst’ sound

[RAG7890]

Would it be fair to say "Jimi used a toothpick"...

..............good call.

Jimi was Jimi & no one played like Jimi.

I really wish he were alive today, would be great to hear what he'd be playing now......................hey guys, imagine for a moment Jimi & SRV on stage together.

Jimi plugged a stock Fender Strat in to several Marshall Stacks & made music history. Talk about the influence of ability on tone.

Cheers, Rudi

 

[Malchik]

All 59 bursts are the best sounding guitars. Ever. Brazilian rosewood is another name for gopher wood (The oils found in it are resistant to floods moisture) and the Honduras mahogany body is a slab of the two-thousand year old true cross. Everything else is garbage, blasphemy! I almost forgot, they're also finished in unicorn-tear nitro, but the liberal tree-huggers will have you think they are endangered. Bastards.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Would it be fair to say "Jimi used a toothpick"...

I heard that sometimes he was forced to play Fender's budget models. He hated to do it, but he had to bite the Bullet.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

I would very much like to see a good guitarist handed 3 guitars in a blind test.

a 59 burst
a 59 luthier built replica burst
a current 59 historic

Don't tell him what they are, or what they cost.

Just let him play them.

I'd like to hear what that guy says. What 'tonal differences' he notices.

I'm not saying he would or he wouldn't. Maybe he'd point at the 59 and say it sounds exceptional and way better then the others. Maybe he wouldn't.

Or maybe he'd just turn the knobs on his amp until they all sounded the same and sounded like he'd like them to sound anyway.

Perceptions are easily twisted, we're fallible beings.

It'd be an interesting experiment though, however it turned out.

 

[RAG7890]

Hey Riffsmachine, I think you may be missing a point on the Hide Glue argument.

If I may, my thoughts are that if you want an exact Replica (like many of us do for whatever reason) then having the guitar made exactly as it was made in, say 1958, is part of the process as is the woods, the finish, the Italian Celluloid (I put that in for you, being Italian ) & binding etc. etc.

A real high end Replica is exactly that & there are several Luthiers capable of doing exactly that.

The Hide Glue is not considered the be all & end all vs. the modern alternative, being Titebond....................& to be honest while I can hear the difference in many changes I could not hear Titebond vs. Hide Glue (although we have never tried doing this)................all things being equal.

I do understand what you mean by many who say I have this & it is better than yours etc. but in reality these people are just "wankers" (a word we commonly use in Australia.......). Many of these "wankers" are talking these up, to make more money from people like us (players & collectors).

As for Historics, well I have been really lucky & have quite a few nice ones that are great guitars. One in particular (my 2007 Yamano R9) is so good I am arguing with myself re keeping vs. selling it.............but it does not come remotely close to my Avatar. When I say this I am not saying it to justify my purchase or to downgrade Historics or to talk up Replicas. It simply is a better guitar, end of story..........but this guitar was a special project that I put > 2 years of research in to.

You don't have to spend a lot of money to get a great guitar. As an example, several years ago I saw a Japanese Custom Shop Epiphone Les Paul (whatever it was?). It was priced at ~ $1,500 in Australia, vs. a Historic Les Paul at a street price of ~ $7,000 (yes they are overpriced in Australia). The Epiphone was killer & I am sorry I did not buy one. The Gibson importer stopped importing this model because they were so good & customers were obviously asking why would I buy a Historic?

My2c FWIW.

 

[RAG7890]

Are people really saying that a late model 1958 Les Paul Standard does not sound as good as an early 1959 model, or a late model 1959 Les Paul sounds better than an early 1960 model?

I have been told first hand by a collector / player who has owned many original Bursts & played many, many more, that the best Les Paul he ever owned or played was a 1957 GT Les Paul with early production PAF's (the ones with no stickers).

 

[BillB1960]

Could you give us an idea on how many original PAF you've done 'in hand' demos on? Ballpark figure would be ok.

That would be precisely the same number as the number of guitars he has sent to Historic Makeovers and the number of original 'bursts he has played.

 

[RAG7890]

I would very much like to see a good guitarist handed 3 guitars in a blind test.

a 59 burst
a 59 luthier built replica burst
a current 59 historic

Don't tell him what they are, or what they cost.

Just let him play them.

I'd like to hear what that guy says. What 'tonal differences' he notices.

I'm not saying he would or he wouldn't. Maybe he'd point at the 59 and say it sounds exceptional and way better then the others. Maybe he wouldn't.

Or maybe he'd just turn the knobs on his amp until they all sounded the same and sounded like he'd like them to sound anyway.

Perceptions are easily twisted, we're fallible beings.

It'd be an interesting experiment though, however it turned out.

We have come close to doing this..................certainly comparing different Historics to different custom builds.

To keep things objective we'd get Michael Dolce to play them. He loves his Charles Cilia Custom Guitars (as do I) but he also loves Gibsons (especially my 2007 Yamano).

He has played a real '58 Burst for several hours (now been sold unfortunately but I plan to track it down for a blind test if I can). Over dinner one night I asked Michael what his thoughts were about that Burst.........was it the price, the fact that it was a Burst, the vibe, the history etc. etc. He said from his point of view, it was a magical guitar & unlike any Gibson he has played.

Unfortunately Michael is currently tied up playing guitar for "The Voice" here in Australia until the end of June. Once he has finished, he'll be playing my '58 Replica with & without the Vintage '58 PAF's, so I'll get some great feedback from him............good, bad or otherwise. I plan to get some recordings & videos done of this using the same amp, cab, settings etc. & will post them here in due course.

Either way, I really like it & it makes me want to play in a band again..............just like my Charles Cilia Custom Strat & Tele style guitars do. I can't ever ask for more than that.

 

[RAG7890]

I just find it funny how a year after Gibson created the so-called "perfect" guitar they shit-canned it for the SG

That is easy to explain. Gibson had falling sales with the Burst & needed to bring out a new model to compete head on with the other brands like Fender.

It was a simple business decision.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

We have come close to doing this..................certainly comparing different Historics to different custom builds.

To keep things objective we'd get Michael Dolce to play them. He loves his Charles Cilia Custom Guitars (as do I) but he also loves Gibsons (especially my 2007 Yamano).

He has played a real '58 Burst for several hours (now been sold unfortunately but I plan to track it down for a blind test if I can). Over dinner one night I asked Michael what his thoughts were about that Burst.........was it the price, the fact that it was a Burst, the vibe, the history etc. etc. He said from his point of view, it was a magical guitar & unlike any Gibson he has played.

Unfortunately Michael is currently tied up playing guitar for "The Voice" here in Australia until the end of June. Once he has finished, he'll be playing my '58 Replica with & without the Vintage '58 PAF's, so I'll get some great feedback from him............good, bad or otherwise. I plan to get some recordings & videos done of this using the same amp, cab, settings etc. & will post them here in due course.

Either way, I really like it & it makes me want to play in a band again..............just like my Charles Cilia Custom Strat & Tele style guitars do. I can't ever ask for more than that.

I'm saying a want a guitarist to play those 3 different guitars, and have absolutely no idea what he's holding. To him they're just 3 equal guitars.

A completely blind test.

Wrap the headstocks and tell him they're Epiphones.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm saying a want a guitarist to play those 3 different guitars, and have absolutely no idea what he's holding. To him they're just 3 equal guitars.

A completely blind test.

Wrap the headstocks and tell him they're Epiphones.

Wrap both the headstocks, and the players' eyes, and the guy handing it to the player.

Double-blind, all the way.

 

[RAG7890]

I'm saying a want a guitarist to play those 3 different guitars, and have absolutely no idea what he's holding. To him they're just 3 equal guitars.

A completely blind test.

Wrap the headstocks and tell him they're Epiphones.

I don't have an issue with the test method but it is hard to get all 3 in the same place at the same time. In Michael's case I don't believe I have to hide the headstock he is 120% completely objective & always has been.............he has to be. He is one of our best session guitar players, it is his living & he supports his family & two children so he does not take any notice of logos only guitars that work for what he has to do.

Personally I do the same thing. The logo, the value, the vibe has nothing to do with it. I learned the hard way after spending loads of $$$$$ collecting many guitars. I just don't have "stars" in my eyes anymore..............years ago I certainly did but not now.

 

[RAG7890]

Wrap both the headstocks, and the players' eyes, and the guy handing it to the player.

Double-blind, all the way.

Far out Thump............what if I trip over & drop my '58 Replica on the floor..................or worse still, the real Burst.

Do I hear that we also need a Placebo to go with that Double Blind??

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

it is his living so he does not take any notice of logos only guitars that work for what he has to do.

I know the feeling.

It's why I'd be interested in seeing that blind test done. I'd like to see how the guitars do and see any 'tonal nuances' when no one knows what guitars they are.

Personally I think they're wood with strings on 'em and people get way too caught up in the minutia. But it'd still be neat to see/hear.

Maybe I'm 100% wrong. Who knows.

 

[sunking420]

I know really nothing about replicas but they sound really intriguing. Any Luthiers someone could recommend? And what would a reasonable price be for this kind of custom ax? As far as the argument here goes, yes there are the five reasons, as well as each instrument whether mass produced or custom is different. Think about glue, old wood, pickups, amps, fingers. Try thinking of all the possible permutations for tone and I know I get dizzy. After considering all the differences and similarities, I'm dizzy enough to just pick up my favorite Lester out of the four I have, favorite for this week anyway, and just try to play something that makes me feel good and makes me smile. If I can get just one more smile from someone listening, better yet. I know I'd like to own an original '59, a great replica, and a '59 reissue to replace my '58 reissue. Anyway, back to Luthiers. Anybody know one to clone the real deal?

 

[7gtop]

Far out Thump............what if I trip over & drop my '58 Replica on the floor..................or worse still, the real Burst.

Do I hear that we also need a Placebo to go with that Double Blind??

........... ............

And I can't wait to listen to that avatar Brotha' .............

 

[BillB1960]

Far out Thump............what if I trip over & drop my '58 Replica on the floor..................or worse still, the real Burst.

Do I hear that we also need a Placebo to go with that Double Blind??

No the placebo is all in your head.

 

[exPFCWintergreen]

Yeah, that feces has been shoveled before.

Mr. Baranet tells nothing new here but it is a nice summary.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Far out Thump............what if I trip over & drop my '58 Replica on the floor..................or worse still, the real Burst.

You'd have a non-blindfolded person carrying the guitar in and out of the testing area. You'd have a blindfolded person, seated, handing the player the guitars in order to insulate the player from feeling the delicacy the sighted carrier might apply to carrying the guitars.

Do I hear that we also need a Placebo to go with that Double Blind??

No. A control would be necessary, though.

In Michael's case I don't believe I have to hide the headstock he is 120% completely objective & always has been.............he has to be. He is one of our best session guitar players, it is his living & he supports his family & two children so he does not take any notice of logos only guitars that work for what he has to do.

Professional scientists are subject to bias. Surely professional guitarists are, as well.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

I wonder why people bother owning any guitar more expensive than a Epiphone or Squire?