Tenons: Modern CS vs. Historic Reissues

EdmundGTP

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It's not about the size of the tenon, but how you can use it.. Or something like that..
 

danpwweldon@msn.com

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Bummer. Oh well, thanks for the info.
I have been in touch with both Heritage (directly) and Gibson (via an authorized dealer intermediary) as I work on spec’ing out a custom build. And I have to be honest, Heritage can do more of the things I want, they’ve been more upfront and responsive, and to top it off, all of their solid bodies have the long neck tenon with hide glue fit, and I didn’t need to trawl the internet to glean that info. The rub is that their CS is on hiatus for the next few months while they catch up on pandemic-related back orders. But even given that delay, they don’t estimate a 10 month turnaround timeframe (which Gibson CS estimates) on a M2M guitar order, so that’s likely a wash.
Heritage doesn't use hide glue, their truss rod has a condom, and they use nashville style bridges (inserts in the body). And AFAIK Gibson custom shop and historic tenons are all the same, the USA production models have the shorter tenon.
 

Blue Blood

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I like that video posted because it shows the regular, standard neck tenon clearly.
For years+ guys have repeated the myth that the neck was loaded with glue and' rocked' into position.
Its simply a shorter tenon.
That extra 1.5" of wood only counts in the bedroom
 

Brek

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If the short neck tenon was not chamfered it would be less controversial?. Maybe someone can explain why it is chamfered, as I have no idea what the manufacturing benefit is of the short tenon shape being chamfered the way it is. To me it should be square on all planes.
 

zdoggie

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the best way to put this issue to bed once and for all is to have all gibson guitars neck thru .
zdoggie
 

AcVox

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My LP has a short tenon, but it sounds amazing so I don't care :cool:

View attachment 487709
In this image I can't make out a short tenon. I'm looking for a tenon like that of my historic R7, but a little shorter, but can't make it out.

It looks like the neck setting on my 1992 LP Standard. Is this the type of joint used today by the Gibson CS and referred to as a 'short tenon' ?
 

AcVox

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I believe so.
Well no one has contradicted you Brek, so for the moment we can assume that the
'Short Tenon' of the CS Lester's is the same as that on my '92 Lester, and used AFAIK since' 68-69.
Jump in if I've got something wrong here, guys n gals.
 

mudface

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Well no one has contradicted you Brek, so for the moment we can assume that the
'Short Tenon' of the CS Lester's is the same as that on my '92 Lester, and used AFAIK since' 68-69.
Jump in if I've got something wrong here, guys n gals.
Actually there was a trans-tenon ( I can hear the jokes now).... in 1969 it was the long tenon and year later the tenon was still in the neck pup cavity but was shorter than the original. This continued thru to 1975 when it became the short rocker tenon and no sign in the neck pup cavity.

The short Custom Shop tenon was advertised as a short WIDE tenon.... though I have not seen a example of this or a depiction of it. Though it is not like the standard short tenon,... at least that is what I heard.... seen no proof.
 

ARandall

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If the short neck tenon was not chamfered it would be less controversial?. Maybe someone can explain why it is chamfered, as I have no idea what the manufacturing benefit is of the short tenon shape being chamfered the way it is. To me it should be square on all planes.
Its all about fit, and the time needed to facilitate it.
The long tenon was made for the individual guitar, as was the trans tenon (69-74). The flat bottom of the tenon had to mate perfectly with the mortice and be the right depth for the neck blank. For a top that was hand sanded after initial carve cutting there was a lot of work needed to make sure the angles and so forth was micron perfect.
For us home builders, merely this step alone takes quite literally hours to perfect.
So in 75 they moved to a more curved base......so that they could simply remove depth off the tenon and not have the individual neck angle slow down the fitting process. They moved to a lip on all the body interfaces of the neck at the same time for the same reason.
 

Brek

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I see, OK makes a lot of sense then, the neck of the one thing I am going to do a lot of reading and watching of build vids. If it takes that long to get right even with a bit of experience it seems I was right to be worried. I work with wood at home building various things from fences, gates, cupboards, and boxing in so cat cut and measure accurately which is probably the reason I am undertaking a build, still cannot decide on the log though. I can get it cut by a local mill for a few quids. I will be glueing the piece I have soon once a few domestic chores are finished (just building a gate and roofline structure for the space between my house and the garage.
 

LtDave32

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Actually there was a trans-tenon ( I can hear the jokes now).... in 1969 it was the long tenon and year later the tenon was still in the neck pup cavity but was shorter than the original. This continued thru to 1975 when it became the short rocker tenon and no sign in the neck pup cavity.

The short Custom Shop tenon was advertised as a short WIDE tenon.... though I have not seen a example of this or a depiction of it. Though it is not like the standard short tenon,... at least that is what I heard.... seen no proof.
I prefer the reverse tenon myself.

That's where a long, narrow tenon protrudes from the top of the guitar's upper bout, into a mortise cut into the neck.

err, um.. yeah, that's it.
 

F Diminted

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I don't think anyone's gonna leave the jam session because you are playing a short tenon guitar LOL
 

Rubetel

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Hello friends
Doing some approximate numbers to calculate the contact area of both tenons we have this assuming that the short tenon makes full contact with the end of the mortise and without making cuts in the corners ...
The short dowel is also supposed to have a lip of about 5mm / .2 inches which makes the tenon somewhat thinner.
1609712736946.png

If we use the short tenon without the lip we will have something more than 16 square inches which would be equivalent to 90% of the area of the long tenon is not too much difference and even so perhaps we will have the possible advantage of the rear contact with the mortise.

Personally, I don't think they make short tenons with the intention of saving wood, I have seen in several videos of the Gibson factory where they simply cut an excess of approximately 2 inches with the band saw and throw it into the bin
Cheers
Ruben
 
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Rubetel

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[QUOTE = "SingleCutFan, publicación: 9676466, miembro: 124196"]
Solo quiero ver algunas fotos, honestamente. Muchos hilos aquí cubrieron el tema, pero la mayoría de las imágenes ya no se muestran.
[/ CITAR]
 

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kakerlak

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I'm of the assumption that there's not much functional difference after taking into account how little tenon remains after routing for a neck humbucker. Like, I bet you could carefully chisel out 100% of the protruding tenon with no discernable change in tone/sustain. I also assume, as variable as wood can be, that you could go into a room of LPs and find a whole handful of short tenon guitars that sound better and/or sustain longer than another handful of long tenon guitars and likely the opposite. I also doubt you could perform statistically better than chance at guessing short/long from a bunch of blind audio demos.

With all that having been said, I fully "get" the appeal of faithful replicas/reissues. Big tortoise celluloid side dots don't affect anything in feel or tone, but they're "right" and that's cool. Same is true is every inch of the instrument, at least to somebody.
 


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