Template Making advice please

[RobStark]

Hi,

So I have read EVERY build thread on here at least twice (and the popular and really good ones over 30 times each at least) and also searched for any template making thread both on this website and others. My problem is this:

When making a template starting from paper (I'm using the Catto plans) once I rough cut it out and begin sanding to the line the paper does not stay in tact and the line becomes all rough and messy or rips off. I do not have a spindle sander but I may buy one this weekend because it seems to really be a necessary tool but then again I see guys like Barnaby (my idol) using no power tools and he obviously made some great templates.

TO BE CLEAR: The paper is not lifting off or not staying adhered to the MDF, it is just like ripping or tearing or become all roughed up and fuzzy so i can no longer see the line.

My goal is to make some master templates from 1/4" MDF after spray adhering (3M 77) the catto plans to it. Then I rough cut near the line but when I go to sand (I'm sanding by hand and hoping the sides stay 90 degrees and square) the paper just won't sand nice like the MDF board will so when it gets to the line, the line gets all messy and screwy and I can no longer be sure I'm accurately sanded to the line.

Any one else have this problem? Is the spindle sander my answer? Does the oscillating and mechanical nature of it help sand the paper away properly?

Thank you in advance for any help,

-Joe

 

[Stephmon]

Try carefully cutting the paper along the line first, with an exacto knife. when you reach the line, the excess paper 'vanishes' and you can creep up to the edge of the cut paper and stop, when you tickle it.

 

[Roman]

Hi,


TO BE CLEAR: The paper is not lifting off or not staying adhered to the MDF, it is just like ripping or tearing or become all roughed up and fuzzy so i can no longer see the line.

-Joe

After you glue up the paper with the 3M, brush on some water thin superglue. Get the paper as saturated as you can, then sand the edges. Paper gets "fuzzy" when you hit it with abrasives. Just think back to when you used a pencil eraser too vigorously on your homework. The paper got all fuzzy in that spot.

 

[Barnaby]

The method outlined by Roman (my idol ) works well, of course. I've done something similar by spraying a bit of lacquer over paper before sanding the templates to the line. I learned to do this for exactly the reasons you mention...even with sandpaper and a block, things get fuzzy. That, and the method that Stephmon gives should get you decent results.

 

[Roman]

Spraying lacquer as Barnaby (my idol) stated, works even better. You get a nice wet coat, and man, that soaks in.

 

[Stephmon]

I haven't tried lacquer, or CA, but I can see that would have the advantage of one less "very carefully" step. Cutting through paper, on MDF, accurately can be a test. Impregnating the paper with a 'hardener' lets you save that focus and attention for the sanding step.

A ROSS has a lot of strengths, but I wouldn't say it should be any better at sanding up to a paper line, than a disk, or belt.

 

[RobStark]

Ahhh clever idea. Thank you guys for the advice, majing the paper brittle first with by some chemical means makes sense. Appreciate it.

 

[bruce bennett]

Hi,

TO BE CLEAR: The paper is not lifting off or not staying adhered to the MDF, it is just like ripping or tearing or become all roughed up and fuzzy so i can no longer see the line.


-Joe

what tool are you using when you get close to your lines?
describe your "process" of rough cutting out the MDF and then how your getting down To you lines.

I never glue my paper drawing down to the template material, I use graphite/Carbon paper and TRACE/TRANSFER the drawing directly onto the material.
i work too hard on my drawings to just cut them up. plus that way I can to make notations as I build the guitar, so I can go back and refer to them next time I build that one..

 

[H.E.L.Shane]

what tool are you using when you get close to your lines?
describe your "process" of rough cutting out the MDF and then how your getting down To you lines.

I never glue my paper drawing down to the template material, I use graphite/Carbon paper and TRACE/TRANSFER the drawing directly onto the material.
i work too hard on my drawings to just cut them up. plus that way I can to make notations as I build the guitar, so I can go back and refer to them next time I build that one..

I do the same thing, to some extent...

BUT...

I lost my early fuggin notebook (binder)... the one that had all the template sketches of a 1968 LP Bass in it (and the detailed wiring diagram and pictures)... i haven't built one in years, and now there's an order for one... and i don't have the top contour templates either... me thinks someone (probably myself) misplaced them and didn't write on them what they were, and then they got into the scrap bin... (the contour templates would have been real easy to mistake for random bandsaw scrap)

gotta find that danged notebook or I'm going to have to crap out the genuine article and make all new measurements so i can make new templates...

urgh...

Notebookes and duplicates.. GREAT ideas.. if your not a dumbass with them after you make them...

 

[Taller76]

This doesn't exactly answer your question at all, but if you have the Catto plan, I assume you have it as a PDF...why bother printing and cutting? Clean the PDF up in something like Inscape and have your master templates laser cut out of 3/16" acrylic and then use those to make your working templates out of MDF or hardboard (use a flush trim router bit)...This is what works for me...YMMV.

 

[RobStark]

what tool are you using when you get close to your lines?
describe your "process" of rough cutting out the MDF and then how your getting down To you lines.

I never glue my paper drawing down to the template material, I use graphite/Carbon paper and TRACE/TRANSFER the drawing directly onto the material.
i work too hard on my drawings to just cut them up. plus that way I can to make notations as I build the guitar, so I can go back and refer to them next time I build that one..

OK, so I print the catto plans at kinkos on architecture /blueprint paper (I get multiple copies), then spray adhere using 3M 77 spay adhesive to glue the paper to 1\4" MDF.

Once dry I take a hand held jig saw and rough cut out the body shape leaving between a 1/4" to an 1/8th" of material outside the line. Then I start sanding by hand using 60 or 80 grit but when I get to the line the paper just curls or Fuzzes.

 

[RobStark]

Try carefully cutting the paper along the line first, with an exacto knife. when you reach the line, the excess paper 'vanishes' and you can creep up to the edge of the cut paper and stop, when you tickle it.

I did try this last night and while it certainly was am improvement, my OCD/Perfectionist deep inside was unhappy with the results. My hand is decently steady, and maybe I just need more practice, but there were times where i felt like my hand wavered on either side of the line (were talking very minute here but still some part of me can't be satisfied unless its perfect). I feel that I would have more control sanding down to the line (whether its using a power sander of some sort or by hand)because it is a slower more gradual decrease in material that would allow me much better control in relation to my distance to the line. Does that make sense?

I haven't actually tried cutting out the the template where i scored/cut on the line yet and maybe I could fix those tiny discrepancies when I sand, but I am also going to try the lacquer idea Barnaby and Roman mentioned.

 

[bruce bennett]

OK, so I print the catto plans at kinkos on architecture /blueprint paper (I get multiple copies), then spray adhere using 3M 77 spay adhesive to glue the paper to 1\4" MDF.

Once dry I take a hand held jig saw and rough cut out the body shape leaving between a 1/4" to an 1/8th" of material outside the line. Then I start sanding by hand using 60 or 80 grit but when I get to the line the paper just curls or Fuzzes.

back when i did cut and glue paper.. I used a band saw (verses a saber/jig saw) to rough cut my material..because the band blade always goes in one direction, from the paper downward.

same idea with a 6" or 12" disc sander. as long as your sanding action is moveing from the paper downward... the paper won't fuzz. and your line will stay reasonably clear.

you will still have some clean up sanding to do by hand no matter which method you use.. but thats why using the carbon paper and haveing a clear trace on the material is better anyway.

 

[RobStark]

back when i did cut and glue paper.. I used a band saw (verses a saber/jig saw) to rough cut my material..because the band blade always goes in one direction, from the paper downward.

same idea with a 6" or 12" disc sander. as long as your sanding action is moveing from the paper downward... the paper won't fuzz. and your line will stay reasonably clear.

you will still have some clean up sanding to do by hand no matter which method you use.. but thats why using the carbon paper and haveing a clear trace on the material is better anyway.

That makes perfect sense, having the blade going only one direction (especially down), problem is I don't have a band saw but I do have access to one but it isn't very convenient although I do realize if I want to get serious with builds I will eventually have to invest in one. But I was hoping there was a way to do it with what tools I have at home an still produce a quality result.

I am going to attempt Barnaby and Romans idea about making the paper brittle by saturating the paper with lacquer or water thinned glue. If I can't produce quality results I will def try your carbon paper process .

Thanks everyone for the tips

 

[Bill Hicklin]

I do all my "drawings" in CAD, and print out and cut as needed. It seems to me that carbon tracing is just another potential inaccuracy introduced into the process.

 

[John Bauers]

If you can afford it, I would strongly recomend you buy a spindle sander, it will be very useful for you build.

 

[Open_Book]

^ What John said.

 

[RobStark]

I purchased the Rigid oscillating spindle and edge belt sander. This tool is awesome and will help quite a bit me thinks. I guess my OCD feels the guitar body should be absolutely exact to the line of the drawing. Even trying to cut the line out using an exacto knife isn't 100% prefect, although most people would prob say its fine. I mean I can get is CLOSE to perfect but never exact.

I'm starting to think that everyone gets as close as perfect to the line as they can and then sand the template till it feels and looks good (regardless if its not to the micro millimeter perfect in regards to the plan/drawing). Someone else's definition of perfect might be a little more forgiving than mine or am I not the only OCD one here?

 

[Ripthorn]

I started out like you, then got hit with the real world where I can't spend hours making templates. I get very close to the outline using the ROSS and then finish off by hand until it feels smooth and until the curves don't show any irregularities when held up to a strong light (it allows the eye to catch things very minor when the strong light is just coming over the edge of the template).

Just keep in mind that the spindle sander, while awesome, will not get you as perfect as you might have thought it will. I know that was the case for me. A light touch will take you far, though, especially using smaller diameter spindles.

 

[DoneOne]

I'm starting to think that everyone gets as close as perfect to the line as they can and then sand the template till it feels and looks good (regardless if its not to the micro millimeter perfect in regards to the plan/drawing).

"Perfect is the enemy of the good" (mantra of a perfectionist friend)

you could try a laser cutter

but the catto outline is rough in spots, so you'd end up having to sand the laser cut into smoother curves anyway... i.e. around the neck pocket. The neck join area needs to be flat... and transition smoothly to the curve just outside that.