Tapered Treble Bleed

[panicden]

Anyone have an idea how this might be incorporated into a "two-volume, one-tone" -type configuration? I play an Ibanez ART100, which is wired "50's, coupled".
However, treble bleed is generally found on a "one-volume, one-tone" setup or on a LP "two-volume, two-tone" topology.

Any idea how I can make use of it on mine?

(BTW - anyone with a Gibson Explorer or Flying V has the same wiring, so this may have a wider audience than it first appears).

Hey Everybody, After finding this forum post on this wiring I was stumped as to how I might be able to take advantage of it with my 2 vol + 1 tone guitar. i got excited when I saw that strachs had asked for advice on the same matter at the bottom of page one of this thread, but bummed that no one ever responded to his question, especially since he asked it over two years ago.
Figured I'd take a shot and ask the same question:
How can i use this wiring with my 2 volume/1 Tone guitar?????
the output of both of my Vol pots go to my 3 position switch, and then the switch runs to my tone pot en route to the output jack.
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[johnh]

Hey Everybody, After finding this forum post on this wiring I was stumped as to how I might be able to take advantage of it with my 2 vol + 1 tone guitar. i got excited when I saw that strachs had asked for advice on the same matter at the bottom of page one of this thread, but bummed that no one ever responded to his question, especially since he asked it over two years ago.
Figured I'd take a shot and ask the same question:
How can i use this wiring with my 2 volume/1 Tone guitar?????
the output of both of my Vol pots go to my 3 position switch, and then the switch runs to my tone pot en route to the output jack.
Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

Hi, no need to shout, we can hear you just fine!.

If you are willing to experiment, there are two ways that might work:

If you look at the schematic on the first post, the treble is fed to the tone pot through a 0.001uF cap and a 220k resistor, running from the third tone pot lug to the volume. Your single tone pot is presumably after the switch. You could run two sets of these caps and resistors back to each pickup. This has a compromise in that the pickups will then slightly bleed into each other, but not much., being via two very small caps and large resistors in series. That needs a sketch if it is at all interesting.

The other way is you get a dual ganged pot for your tone, and wire it like an LP, with both tone pots on the same knob. Then you can do this trick for each pickup separately.

But simple treble bleed 150k 0.001uF in parallel works very well, without the tone pot idea.

 

[panicden]

If you are willing to experiment, there are two ways that might work:

If you look at the schematic on the first post, the treble is fed to the tone pot through a 0.001uF cap and a 220k resistor, running from the third tone pot lug to the volume. Your single tone pot is presumably after the switch. You could run two sets of these caps and resistors back to each pickup. This has a compromise in that the pickups will then slightly bleed into each other, but not much., being via two very small caps and large resistors in series. That needs a sketch if it is at all interesting.

The other way is you get a dual ganged pot for your tone, and wire it like an LP, with both tone pots on the same knob. Then you can do this trick for each pickup separately.

Hey John, I like your suggestion on using the dual ganged pot. I don't know much about them. Searching the web for info I see that some are concentric and some are center detent ( for blend/balance applications). Which of these were you thinking of OR is there another type that I am just unaware of? If possible I would like the Tone pot to act just as my current master tone works, in other words overall control of both pups with a single simple twist,or do I have to use the center detent style? (I assume that center detent is where both pups would be wide open and turning clockwise past the detent actually then Trims the treble off the 2nd pup?? is that how it works?) So what type of dual gang pot should I be looking at?
Here is what I found for detented
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CTS-Dual-500K-Pot-Blend-Balance-Audio-Taper-Potentiometer-With-Center-Detent-/271262599718
Also, currently, as you correctly presumed, my vol pots are going to switch, and switch to tone to jack. Would I be simply swapping in the dual gang pot in place of the current tone pot (post switch)? Or do I have to put it pre switch? thanks again for your great idea. It has given me hope.

 

[johnh]

Here is an example of what I was meaning:

RV24BF-10-15R1-A500K Alpha (Taiwan) | Mouser

That one looks like it is a dual full-sized pot of 24mm, but you can also find 16mm. The other key parameter is the shaft type if you want to fit a particular knob, That one shows a plain shaft but you may want to find a knurled one for most guitar knobs.

There would be no detent, its just two standard pots on one shaft. The usual application would be for volume controls in a two-channel audio system.

You would wire them to the volume pots before the switch, as if they were two separate pots. This will affect the way the controls interact because currently, by default, you have '50's' wiring with tone pot after volume. This way, it will be 'modern' wiring, which is more appropriate for treble bleed arrangements. At full volume there is no difference and the treble bleed is not acting then anyway.

 

[panicden]

Here is an example of what I was meaning:

RV24BF-10-15R1-A500K Alpha (Taiwan) | Mouser

That one looks like it is a dual full-sized pot of 24mm, but you can also find 16mm. The other key parameter is the shaft type if you want to fit a particular knob, That one shows a plain shaft but you may want to find a knurled one for most guitar knobs.

There would be no detent, its just two standard pots on one shaft. The usual application would be for volume controls in a two-channel audio system.

You would wire them to the volume pots before the switch, as if they were two separate pots. This will affect the way the controls interact because currently, by default, you have '50's' wiring with tone pot after volume. This way, it will be 'modern' wiring, which is more appropriate for treble bleed arrangements. At full volume there is no difference and the treble bleed is not acting then anyway.

John, thanks so much, and yes, mini and split would be preferred.
I found this one on the Mouser site,I THINK it might be on the same track yes?
PDB182-GTR01-504A2 Bourns | Mouser

 

[johnh]

Yes that seems good. Seems to have quite a good shaft length too, but maybe check with your guitar if you are going through the body top like on an LP, rather than through a pick guard.

 

[panicden]

Yes that seems good. Seems to have quite a good shaft length too, but maybe check with your guitar if you are going through the body top like on an LP, rather than through a pick guard.

Yes, actually, going in a hollow body PRS style guitar and the longer shaft will be helpful.
Cool, so that pot should do the trick? great to hear, i will order it. I was concerned as to weather it might have a indent or not.
And thanks again, for your ideas, VERY helpful

 

[jatna]

Hi. I am wondering what this Tapered Treble Bleed design would look like in a normal (non Les Paul) 2 humbucker, 5 way switch guitar with a volume and a tone pot, using Seymour Duncan pickups.

What I am not getting is where it says "from pickup". Does that mean the bare and green wires that you normally solder to the back of the volume pot?

If someone could explain it or draw it out, I would truly appreciate it!

 

[moreles]

Jeez, I wish I knew how to enter thank-yous because this is terrific. I have exactly the problem you describe. I can eventually get the right tones with 50s wiring, but there's way too much back-and-forth. For players who mostly use a set-and-forget approach to controls, 50s wiring is great, but I rely on the volume knob a lot to go from a middle setting to more saturated OD, or low-volume rhythm. Your approach will be a god-send for me. I had been thinking in these lines myself, but I don't have the electronics savvy to nail it. Thanks 1,000,000.

 

[DavidRamey]

morels, you might try using a CTS 500K linear taper pot for your volume controls. It is smoother roll off over the whole scale (10 - 1). I like it much better than the audio taper that is normally suggested for use.

 

[QReuCk]

Jeez, I wish I knew how to enter thank-yous because this is terrific. I have exactly the problem you describe. I can eventually get the right tones with 50s wiring, but there's way too much back-and-forth. For players who mostly use a set-and-forget approach to controls, 50s wiring is great, but I rely on the volume knob a lot to go from a middle setting to more saturated OD, or low-volume rhythm. Your approach will be a god-send for me. I had been thinking in these lines myself, but I don't have the electronics savvy to nail it. Thanks 1,000,000.

IMO: 50's wiring is great for players who mostly use a set-and-forget approach to tone controls, but rely on the volume knob a lot to go from a middle setting to more saturated OD, or low-volume rhythm.


That being said, 50's wiring can be very tricky to use if you intend to roll tone knobs up and down during a song: they act not only on the tone, but also on the percieved volume.

Also the effect of 50's wiring isn't completely equivalent to just "avoiding the loss of trebbles from rolling off volume", it's more complexe than that (seek David Collins youtube series for more explanation). I happen to like that effect better than the one of a trebble bleed, but that's just me.

 

[ScottMarlowe]

FYI, when you add treble bleed, it makes audio taper closer to linear, and linear a reverse audio taper, so if you're gonna do treble bleed, it's almost always better to start off with an audio taper pot.

 

[johnh]

FYI, when you add treble bleed, it makes audio taper closer to linear, and linear a reverse audio taper, so if you're gonna do treble bleed, it's almost always better to start off with an audio taper pot.

Yes indeed and IMO, that can be a significant benefit of a simple 1000pF/150k parallel TB circuit. When you do this, a standard audio pot with a steep taper to 10% at mid turn, acts instead as about a 30% taper, which is much smoother and more like some of the special guitar pots that are often well-liked. But its still more effective at changing volume than a linear pot, with good control in the low range and a useful reduction turning down from 10.

 

[DavidRamey]

But its still more effective at changing volume than a linear pot, with good control in the low range and a useful reduction turning down from 10.

Not in my experience. Gibson and Epiphone comes from the factory with linear taper pots.

 

[Tim Mason]

You guys know you do not have to put a resistor paralell with the cap using the cap on volume pot technique...?

Its important to know different pickups are suited to different bleed circuits. With the cap on the vilume pot (no resistor paralell) the taper is not altered... problem is sometimes a .001uf may be to bright as you roll back, in this case a resistor placed before the bleed cap, wired in series (between the Vol outer lug and bleed cap leg) will fix this and not change your taper. What value resistor depends, a trimpit comes in handy to find the perfect match.

As i said each pickup different but generally half the value of the volume pot to get the right value resistor to place in series with the cap, kinman recommends 130k resistor in series with a .002uf cap on the volume pot for the noisless strat pickups, buckers this would modify your tone as you roll back the volume so a lower value cap and higher value resistor is generally needed, hence you see .001uf recommended for buckers.

So if you want to have a nice bleed that does not effect your taper or introduce an input capacitor in series with your hot signal like the one posted in this thread (which may behave funny with sime pedals and amps), i really recommend finding the right value components and if you need to pop a resistor with the vol pot bleed circuit, dont put a paralell, put it in fornt of the cap, and only needed if the tone gets brighter as you roll back the volume with the cap alone... sometimes with the perfect value cap you just dont need the resistor at all

 

[Stryke]

Hi there! Newbie first post here.

Not trained in electronics but would like to try this mod for both my Les Paul (with modern wiring) and also my MIJ '86 Strat made to ST-62 specs. Just wondering if anyone has tried it on a Strat?

 

[Benj]

Hi guys,
A little late to the party, but I just wanted to express gratitude to the OP. Just tried it on my LP with Phat Cat in the neck and Gibson 57 in the bridge (330k resistor in the bridge) and this mod is just what it claims to be: perfect control over the volume and tone with no trebble loss. I'm discovering my guitar again and it just became a LOT more versatile. Awesome!

 

[Chistopher]

Hehe, dont get too excited, you may find other issues, especially when using a fuzz pedal, things react differently when you put a cap in series in the circuit, i find this too temperamental when changing tones at times.
But if it works for you much love and blessings, just dont freak out when one of your fav pedals sounds totaly different after this mod

FYI, when you add treble bleed, it makes audio taper closer to linear, and linear a reverse audio taper, so if you're gonna do treble bleed, it's almost always better to start off with an audio taper pot.

Hey, this thread actually started me to open an account for this forum, but I have a question regarding what these two gentleman have said. How drastic is the fuzz pedal thing going to be and how drastic is the change in taper going to be with the tapered Kinman treble bleed? I prefer linear taper with modern wiring so should I just go with audio? I know that the Kinman wiring doesn't effect taper in a standard treble bleed, but I've never tried it with this fancy new version.

 

[freefrog]

Hey, this thread actually started me to open an account for this forum, but I have a question regarding what these two gentleman have said. How drastic is the fuzz pedal thing going to be and how drastic is the change in taper going to be with the tapered Kinman treble bleed? I prefer linear taper with modern wiring so should I just go with audio? I know that the Kinman wiring doesn't effect taper in a standard treble bleed, but I've never tried it with this fancy new version.

It's impossible to generalize about such things, since the result depends on the LRC values involved.

The pic below modelizes (very roughly) the response of a typical single coil coupled to 250k controls, as it's loaded by a typical Fuzz Face circuit through an average cable.

The measurements are simulated with and without a treble bleed including a 1.2n cap in series with a 120k resistor.

You can see that @ 1/10, the treble bleed gives scooped low mids and a high mid hump @ 2khz. It would make a Fuzz Face really thin sounding...

I often mount Kinman Treble Bleed circuits in Fender style guitars. If I had to pair such a circuit with a moody fuzz pedal, I'd probably use a trim pot instead of the resistor - and I'd try various cap values.

FWIW. YMMV.

 

[Chistopher]

You can see that @ 1/10, the treble bleed gives scooped low mids and a high mid hump @ 2khz. It would make a Fuzz Face really thin sounding...

I often mount Kinman Treble Bleed circuits in Fender style guitars. If I had to pair such a circuit with a moody fuzz pedal, I'd probably use a trim pot instead of the resistor - and I'd try various cap values.

View attachment 276560

Interesting, I hear about this issue a lot with fuzz pedals and buffers, what exactly creates the issue and why don't other pedals have it? And I use a Big Muff, is this as tempermental as other fuzz pedals?