Tapered Treble Bleed

siore

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
1,988
Reaction score
127
Very nice wiring scheme. :) I have two guitars wired this way now, and I think it has merits for it to stay awhile. The treble bleed cap value, just like wired conventional across the hot and wiper of the volume pot, still benefits from some tweaking. It can vary a lot to where you have good results. I got 1nf (1000pf) on one guitar, and 180pf on the other. Both humbucker guitars at that. I recommend taking out the ol' alligator clips, and see what works.

What I like is the consistent taper you have on both volume and tone knobs, also the tones are never thin, and together with some PIO tone caps, are almost always vocal. YMMV.
 

Mookakian

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
6,601
Reaction score
2,863
Hehe, dont get too excited, you may find other issues, especially when using a fuzz pedal, things react differently when you put a cap in series in the circuit, i find this too temperamental when changing tones at times.
But if it works for you much love and blessings, just dont freak out when one of your fav pedals sounds totaly different after this mod ;)
 

luisgarciaalanis

Junior Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
25
Reaction score
0
Just thought I’d share my experiences with wiring in my new RS Guitarworks Vintage kit in my LP Traditional, and in the process plug the wiring solution I found. (Apologies for the length of the post, I tried to edit it down, honest)

I started by wiring it 50s as per the RS recommendation, but I found that the interaction between the tone and volume controls makes for a very finicky, hit and miss setup. Basically I found that altering the tone control alters the volume control taper. What is the point of having an RS Superpot with a custom taper when that taper is completely messed up by the tone setting? This is very noticeable when you get down to 5 or below on the tone pot. I also found that mixing the pickups on the middle setting just didn’t work anywhere near as nicely as it did with the stock modern wiring, I couldn’t get it to sound right.
Don’t get me wrong, there are some very nice tones in there, but getting the settings right is so much more difficult – the slightest over correction on a pot and you’re a mile off all of a sudden. I haven’t tried it but I would imagine in a gig setting this could be a real pain. I can see why Gibson don’t use 50s wiring any more. I know most of you guys prefer it, but it doesn't work for me.

So then I tried wiring it modern instead. Good control, but straight back into the mud again on turning down the vol, particularly noticeable on the neck pickup after hearing the 50s wiring. So I ended up with a compromise, bridge wired modern, neck wired 50s, but this wasn’t great, and middle position still not useable like it was stock.

So then I started thinking about modern wiring with a treble bleed circuit. The problem with treble bleeds though is that unless it is well balanced, you can end up with some unnatural sounds. Then there are parallel or series resistance options. Parallel doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, as it bleeds low frequencies through as well, and as it is in parallel with the high side of the volume pot, it messes with the volume taper again; so series would seem more sensible. Also, if you get the values wrong you can end up with the guitar getting brighter as you turn the volume down. Some people leave the resistor out altogether but this ends up producing a very tinny effect when the volume is low. Then, what happens when you want to use the tone control as well? With the tone left on 10 everything is good, adjusting the volume down brings the treble bleed into play, and the highs are retained. But if you reduce the tone as well, the treble bleed is still letting through the highs – the lower you set the tone the more noticeable this is – I think this is the treble “sheen” that people refer to sometimes when talking about treble bleeds. Doesn’t do much for that “woman tone” setting – you have to leave the vol on 10 to eliminate the effect.

I tried to come up with a solution for these issues, I was thinking about using double gang pots and all sorts of exotic options, but then I came across this (its the second post in the wiring library - not sure how to link to that though)

Jemsite - Hi-Pass Filter trick (I'm an idiot)

Basically it is modern wiring with a rearranged tone circuit to allow for a different arrangement of a treble bleed. For lack of a name, I am going to call it the “tapered treble bleed” because what it does is to reduce the effect of the treble bleed as the tone is turned down, by wiring it to the previously “unused” end of the tone pot. As the tone is reduced, the resistance in the bleed circuit increases, reducing its effect. I wish I could claim credit for it, but it was posted by FrankFalbo, so hats off to him – it’s a very clever and simple idea. The only change I have made to it is to include a series resistor – this is essential I think to limit the treble bleed from making the sound getting very tinny when the volume is very low (with tone on 10).

So why am I posting this then, if it's in the wiring library? Thing is, I can’t find any evidence that anyone except for the author/inventor has ever tried it. I found a couple of references to it on different forums (posts by the author) but everybody seems to have ignored him. Hence my reason for posting this - I think it's too good to pass by. Maybe most people just don’t get it, or think it’s too far from the usual 50s/modern wiring options. Anyway it seemed to be possibly the ideal solution to me so I decided to try it. First I just tried the standard treble bleed with a series RC with various component values. This enabled me to get the correct RC values for the basic circuit, but also confirmed to me that there are some unnatural sounds produced when you turn down both the volume and the tone. Then I re-wired to the tapered version, using one of the old tone pots as a variable resistor so I could fine tune the circuit, before putting in a fixed resistor.

And you know what – IT WORKS! :) I now have what I consider to be the ideal – intuitive controls, a volume control that has a perfect taper, doesn’t lose the highs when you turn it down, and a tone control which only affects tone and not volume, also with a lovely smooth taper, and no nasty harmonics or treble sheen. And it sounds awesome. :thumb: I can play with the tone down at 5-6 for a “normal” tone, and whack it up to 10 for extra bite, and this won’t have any effect on the volume or taper of the volume control, and I can use the volume without it getting muddy or getting any unwanted tonal effects. I can also mix the two pickups on the middle position just like it was before. Exactly what I was after in fact.

For me, I think this is possibly the best option for the passive volume/tone control circuit, it certainly works far better than the 50s wiring on my guitar. I recommend you try it if you aren’t happy in any way with your tone or controls, particularly if you don't get on with the 50s wiring and don't like mud! I'd be interested to hear if anyone else out there has tried this as well.

For those of you who are interested, I've attached a schematic, a wiring diagram and a couple of pictures of my control cavity after the mod.

The volume and tone pots are 500K, the tone caps are 0.022uF Luxe Bees, the treble bleed circuit is a 0.001uF Sprague Orange Drop cap and a 220K metal film resistor (0.6w) wired in series. If you do try it, I think you will be OK with 0.001uF caps, resistor value may vary (I think I could have gone higher (to 400K) on the bridge). If you have lower value volume pots, you will probably need a smaller resistor.

Note that normally, the tone cap would be grounded to the back of the tone pot, but because of the size of the bees, I grounded it at the top lug of the volume pot (doesn’t really matter where it is grounded).

I just wired this into my LP. I am using

500K pots.
0.001uf cap is code 102
0.22uf cap is code 223
220K resistor

Results:
I can lower the volume and treble remains
The last 20% of the volume makes it go volume less.
The tone caps seem to have no effect on the circuit. For some reason tone pots are useless.

Any ideas on why the tone pots seem not to have any effect on the circuit?

I rewired this again and got the same results
I even tried this with aligator clips and the same happened... I wonder what is wrong with this.

I am using Seymour duncan alnico II pro pickups.

Thanks
Luis
 

The_Nuge

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2010
Messages
2,030
Reaction score
1,572
Hi!

I want to try this too!

How do you wire this in an Explorer-Style guitar with 2 volumes, 1 tone and a 3-way switch?
Log or linear pots?

Cheers

Es
 

mytone

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2012
Messages
16
Reaction score
1
So the .001uF Sprague Orange Drop cap and a 220K metal film resistor are wired one right after the other from the volume to tone pot?? I real interested in trying this but want to make sure I get it right. :slash:
 

korus

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2007
Messages
1,151
Reaction score
451
I just wired this into my LP. I am using

500K pots.
0.001uf cap is code 102
0.22uf cap is code 223
220K resistor

Results:
I can lower the volume and treble remains
The last 20% of the volume makes it go volume less.
The tone caps seem to have no effect on the circuit. For some reason tone pots are useless.

Any ideas on why the tone pots seem not to have any effect on the circuit?

I rewired this again and got the same results
I even tried this with aligator clips and the same happened... I wonder what is wrong with this.

I am using Seymour duncan alnico II pro pickups.

Thanks
Luis
Here tone cap is BEHIND the tone pot ( vol pot - tone pot - tone cap - ground )
1 http://www.dominocs.com/Gibson/WiringLibrary/wiringHighPassFalbo.gif

and on both here, tone cap is IN FRONT of the tone pot (vol pot - tone cap - tone pot - ground )
2a http://www.dominocs.com/Gibson/WiringLibrary/wiringModern.jpg
2b http://www.dominocs.com/Gibson/WiringLibrary/wiring50s.jpg

If your tone cap is connected as on 2a you should rewire it as on 1. Then the mod will work.

And use both cap and res like here (R2 and C2)
http://i557.photobucket.com/albums/ss18/ilya-v/BestWiring2.jpg (note: R1 is a resistor which makes audio taper vol pot closer to linear)
 

strachs

Junior Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Anyone have an idea how this might be incorporated into a "two-volume, one-tone" -type configuration? I play an Ibanez ART100, which is wired "50's, coupled". I don't ever play with the volume so low that it causes tonal problems (typically I have the volume at about 6-7 to clean up and 10 for full gain), but I am interested in some of Joe Satriani's use of switchable treble bleed - called High Pass Filter on the JS guitars.

Check out the sound he gets at 8:11 in the V1eWXGn9rnY video on youtube.

However, treble bleed is generally found on a "one-volume, one-tone" setup or on a LP "two-volume, two-tone" topology.

Any idea how I can make use of it on mine?

(BTW - anyone with a Gibson Explorer or Flying V has the same wiring, so this may have a wider audience than it first appears).
 

domct203

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
119
Reaction score
108
Just thought I'd give this great thread a bump. I've been running this Treble Bleed in my Sig T for 8-10 months now and I really like it, much better for me than 50's wiring.

Time to add it to the Norlin.

Dom
 

TNJason

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
146
Reaction score
97
Hello all. I've been reading a lot about treble bleeds and would like to try this one. I'm really good at following directions but know very little about the way electronics actually work. I have wired all of my guitars myself, single coils and HB's, 50's and modern. Complete diagrams and pictures help me the most. I have 50's wiring in my 2 Les Pauls and want to try this mod. From the diagram, it looks like the PIO caps are no longer there. I know that can't be. So do I ADD what is shown in the diagram to the existing wiring? I know I would have to change back to modern by moving the caps over a lug, but then do I just add the other cap and resistor? Thanks in advance for replying to a necropost. Detailed pics would be great if anyone would be so kind. Thank you.
 

Sugardaddy1979

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
124
Reaction score
53
Check out the diagrams in post 8 of this thread. The green circle is the tone cap that would be your pio. The diagram references a ceramic disc type cap.
 

TNJason

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2013
Messages
146
Reaction score
97
Thank you Sugardaddy. One more stupid question. Is the jumper going from the center lug of the volume to the top lug of the tone a cap as well? In the diagram it looks like one with the little yellow circle on it.

Thanks
 

JHMvP

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
450
Reaction score
279
Good thing that this old thread was pulled up again!

I totally forgot about it although I was planning to try this.
 

Luthier-Atlanta

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Messages
321
Reaction score
322
It's an interesting idea.
I find that a regular treble bleed works just fine (with the resister in paralell) as long as you don't use an audio taper pot. The nice thing is that the resistor changes the taper and makes just about the same and an audio taper.

Yeah pretty much. I sell/install a bunch of them.

For the volume pot or tone pot?

Volume, one can install grease buckets on the tone pot or pots. I install a fair bit of these as well.
 

if6was9

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
882
Reaction score
333
I have used this "Tapered Treble Bleed" on two guitars for the last 4 or 5 years and prefer it to regular modern wiring, modern wiring with 'standard' treble bleeds or '50's wiring.

I purchased a new ES-335 two months ago and I'm working up the courage to pull the controls out of the F hole and rewire it also.
 

JHMvP

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
450
Reaction score
279
I have used this "Tapered Treble Bleed" on two guitars for the last 4 or 5 years and prefer it to regular modern wiring, modern wiring with 'standard' treble bleeds or '50's wiring.

I purchased a new ES-335 two months ago and I'm working up the courage to pull the controls out of the F hole and rewire it also.

What components and values did you actually use? On what kind of humbuckers?
 

if6was9

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Messages
882
Reaction score
333
What components and values did you actually use? On what kind of humbuckers?

On my '78 "The Paul" I used the suggested values of 220k resistor and 0.001uf capacitor. It has a set of Guitar Force Rebel II pickups 8.8k bridge and 7.9k neck - all 4 pots are 500k audio taper.

My Epi SG copy has Lace alumitone pickups with all 4 pots 300k audio taper. I used the same size cap (0.001uf) but I went with a 150k resistor.

Another good read on this subject can be found here:
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/109923-top-secret-wiring-pros.html
 

Latest Threads



Top