State of the collectible/vintage market in 2013?

Jimmi

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I don't see how establishing or enforcing internet sales tax is punitive to the successful. It's closing a loophole. I just did my tax return and paid 7% state use tax and 1.5% local salestax on everything I bought online last year. The internet retailers should be required to collect the tax instead of the states relying on the honor system.
Probably because you are used to living where the taxes are high and everything is taxed. No use tax in TN for example...no income tax either. I now live in the northern Midwest where they tax the letters I am using in this post....where I used to live, they have been experiencing a recovery for yrs, here they are still really struggling as business close or move out of state.
 

eric ernest

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I don't see how establishing or enforcing internet sales tax is punitive to the successful. It's closing a loophole.
States have different tax structures for a reason...otherwise who would live in, or move, to a state like Nevada. :D Unless of course, people get taxed so much in California that they have to move there. :hmm:

If the Federal government gets its paws on the internet it can only hurt the small retailer.
 

yeti

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States have different tax structures for a reason...otherwise who would live in, or move, to a state like Nevada. :D Unless of course, people get taxed so much in California that they have to move there. :hmm:

If the Federal government gets its paws on the internet it can only hurt the small retailer.
Who said anything about the Federal government? In Nebraska (hardly a liberal state) every internet purchase made is subject to a "use tax" unless the transaction included a sales tax. It removes the artificial competitive edge that internet sellers have over local retailers, unfortunately it'll be hard to enforce.
 

Stealthtastic

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I personally would love to see a more level playing field to make sure that a brick and mortar shop can compete. Buying guitars on ebay has always struck me as odd. I'd never buy sight unseen.
Yeah no. I ****ing hate dealing with the assholes at most stores and would much rather buy off craigslist or a forum and even Ebay. I've never actually bought a guitar online that I didnt like except for one 8 string tele but thats because it had one more string than I found usable.
 

eric ernest

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Who said anything about the Federal government?
Them...

It removes the artificial competitive edge that internet sellers have over local retailers
The local retailers largest competitor is one guy with one widget to sell....OK, now times that by 10,000,000.

I would much rather compete with a big sloppy internet box pusher than that!!!!!!

In the end, the "big sloppy internet box pushers" may not be able to compete with that.
 

Cookie-boy

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EVERYONE is a dealer now. I have to compete with home sellers who hold down a full time job and run a business at home in direct competition to me and work on smaller margins because they are not declaring this income and are paying no tax or VAT (European value added tax @ 20%!!). The internet has been great in many ways but a real bummer in others!

Legitimate retail business is slowly being dismantled.

Ultimately bricks and mortar lose.:mad:
 

Jimmi

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EVERYONE is a dealer now. I have to compete with home sellers who hold down a full time job and run a business at home in direct competition to me and work on smaller margins because they are not declaring this income and are paying no tax or VAT (European value added tax @ 20%!!). The internet has been great in many ways but a real bummer in others!

Legitimate retail business is slowly being dismantled.

Ultimately bricks and mortar lose.:mad:
Think some of these places offer additional value. Your shop on a local level offeres services like guitar repair, maintainance, a place to try and sell amps. If there were a shop close to my house that I could try the guitars I would but there is nothing close. If I played a great one, I would be more inclined to by that one than take a chance on an unplayed guitar of the net.

That and eventually, there will be a crackdown by the IRS on the income aspect of Ebay and other ways to sell.
 

circusboy28

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I agree with Jimmi about additional value. I went Jackson's about once every 6 weeks or so for over a decade, I'd buy strings or a Tshirt every now and then. The big deal was that it was FULL of vintage guitars - I played 50's and 60's Tele's & Strats, 50's & 60's (& 70's>) Gibsons. They had everything a player could want to play - including 'bursts - over the years. They were always friendly, cool about letting you play anything hanging on the walls. One of my favorite days there I got to play an original Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe and a '40's D-21. On the same day!

The issue was the prices. Steve wanted to squeeze every dollar out of everything, I guess to sustain his lifestyle in the manner that he'd grow accustom. And that's the issue all over with vintage stores as I see it. They want too much money, their cut for being a middle man seems way too big when they sell on commission...and if they own the guitars themselves they still seem to think that it's 2006. And it's the same in any business - if you try to sell for more than people are willing to pay then you are going to go out of business.

People - including me - WILL pay a little more for the privilege of buying from a bricks and mortar store...but not WAY more than I can get it for myself on the internet. The future, like it or not, is for guys with shops to realise that they don't set the prices any more, that their reputations only buy them a small upcharge, not a Mercedes tariff anymore. Steve Jackson thought his reputation was worth a lot...and where is he now?
 

eric ernest

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I guess to sustain his lifestyle in the manner that he'd grow accustom. And that's the issue all over with vintage stores as I see it.
The typical vintage guitar dealer is not getting rich. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

You ever go to a guitar show an look at what they drive? :laugh2:
 

circusboy28

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Steve is well known for his vintage car collection, well over a million dollars worth, mostly in his wife or other family members names. Don't want to go into a burn down on Jacksons road, it was done in a big way when the shop went under. More making the point about vintage dealers needing to keep their heads in reality about what the market is now, rather than what it was or may be in the future.
 

Cookie-boy

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Let's not forget that if you buy a fugazzi off a private seller it is a case of Caveat Emptor. Buying from a bricks and mortar retail store or bona fide dealer gives you so many more rights as a consumer (or it does here in the UK!). You've only got to read the tales of woe on these boards to realise that!:laugh2::laugh2:
 

eric ernest

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Steve is well known for his vintage car collection, well over a million dollars worth, mostly in his wife or other family members names.
I just didn't want anyone to get the impression this type of lifestyle is normal for vintage dealers.

Like was stated....it ain't like he was selling anything.

Buying from a bricks and mortar retail store or bona fide dealer gives you so many more rights as a consumer (or it does here in the UK!).
Maybe that's why some have left the UK and set up shop in the states... :hmm:
 

tag2

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Eric, you have a name and reputation. agwar76 on ebay does not. That would allow many folks to feel more secure in an online transaction with you.
 

Cookie-boy

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Maybe that's why some have left the UK and set up shop in the states... :hmm:
Hmm.....:hmm:...... Quite possibly.

Until fairly recently if you were a seller under the "Sale of Goods Act" the onus was on the purchaser to prove to the Court that the faults within the merchandise were present at time of purchase. Now the responsibility lies with the seller to prove they weren't. A much harder proposition!
 

Liam

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Hmm.....:hmm:...... Quite possibly.

Until fairly recently if you were a seller under the "Sale of Goods Act" the onus was on the purchaser to prove to the Court that the faults within the merchandise were present at time of purchase. Now the responsibility lies with the seller to prove they weren't. A much harder proposition!
Funnily enough in my current job we have quite a big customer base (well over 1/4 million now), so there is often someone with a problem that they want to wave the Sale of Goods Act and recent amendments at us for. As Product Engineer I decided that rather than run in fear from Trading Standards, I'd get their help.

Really funny how many customers with very high and mighty views on what we ought to do about faulty goods completely crap themselves when they find out you went to Trading Standards when they were still using it as an idle threat. In general, being honest, treating people fairly, selling goods as described, and making a valid attempt to trade within the law does seem to be working so far. Don't know if it's true in all areas of the UK, but our local Senior Trading Standards Officer is a totally decent bloke who doesn't want to see buyers OR sellers ripped off. He has declined to start a national register of "known opportunist whiners" though. I thought it was a really good idea.

Liam
 

MissingSomethin

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Based on my research this week, I think I am going to put my vintage guitar acquisition on hold. I think I've reached a stalemate.

First, I've learned that there are many fakes. So, one needs to either become an expert, or buy from a trusted dealer. But, consensus also seems to be that many dealer prices are stuck in bubble fantasy land (which is why dealers are going out of business) So, if one doesn't want to pay inflated 2007 bubble prices, he risks buying a fake on Ebay/CL. I am not interested in overpaying for anything, frankly. I like a deal, which is what led me to this "buy low" idea in the first place.

Next is the dilemma of buying a collectible vs. player. I want a guitar to play. If you buy a vintage "player grade", then why bother? Refins seem to be the bastard child of guitars. All the downsides of a very old guitar (needs refret, etc), yet cost 3-5x as much as a reissue, but don't have any real collectibility. Lose/lose. You're probably better off buying a $2000 historic custom shop reissue that is probably just as good. The reissue might even be a cleaner, newer, better guitar than a true vintage.

I want to thank everyone here for their tips and advice. I've enjoyed reading this forum to learning about guitars and the market, and will continue to research and learn, just in case something comes my way. Reading and posting on a forum has also inspired me to start playing more regularly. The best move is to take that $10-$15k and spend it on a few years of lessons! I think I will resume taking lessons soon. I already have all the equipment a guy ever needs. I just need to keep expanding my ability. So, I am going to pivot, and start using this forum as a place to discuss actual guitar playing and music theory (instead of equipment buying advice) I'm looking forward to the next chapter in my playing!
 

Jimmi

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I own both original vintage guitars and a couple of refinished. I disagree that the refins are the bastard children or that player grade guitars are to be avoided. They have inherent value that probably have a floor in value and can still go up. Reissues for the most part, are less likely to go up except for very specific offereings. There are too many of them around to be rare and supply and demand drive prices. A good 50s P90 gold top has a much better chance of increasing value than the ave R9 burst.

As far as the fakes, there are several members here who will help you if you ask. There are a couple of them that I consult regularly.

Also, several of the trusted dealers will go down to reasonable prices. Some are stuck in 2006 but most will negotiate now.

I have bought guitars off and on for 25 yrs. I had taken 10yrs between the last round of buying until the ones I bought this year. I have usualy bought what I like and not worried too much (though aware) about resale. Nearly all have had for more than 10 yrs are worth at least 2x and most 3-4x what I paid for them. If you like vintage guitars, then look around for a good priced one and worry about the selling price in 5-10yrs.

Based on my research this week, I think I am going to put my vintage guitar acquisition on hold. I think I've reached a stalemate.

First, I've learned that there are many fakes. So, one needs to either become an expert, or buy from a trusted dealer. But, consensus also seems to be that many dealer prices are stuck in bubble fantasy land (which is why dealers are going out of business) So, if one doesn't want to pay inflated 2007 bubble prices, he risks buying a fake on Ebay/CL. I am not interested in overpaying for anything, frankly. I like a deal, which is what led me to this "buy low" idea in the first place.

Next is the dilemma of buying a collectible vs. player. I want a guitar to play. If you buy a vintage "player grade", then why bother? Refins seem to be the bastard child of guitars. All the downsides of a very old guitar (needs refret, etc), yet cost 3-5x as much as a reissue, but don't have any real collectibility. Lose/lose. You're probably better off buying a $2000 historic custom shop reissue that is probably just as good. The reissue might even be a cleaner, newer, better guitar than a true vintage.

I want to thank everyone here for their tips and advice. I've enjoyed reading this forum to learning about guitars and the market, and will continue to research and learn, just in case something comes my way. Reading and posting on a forum has also inspired me to start playing more regularly. The best move is to take that $10-$15k and spend it on a few years of lessons! I think I will resume taking lessons soon. I already have all the equipment a guy ever needs. I just need to keep expanding my ability. So, I am going to pivot, and start using this forum as a place to discuss actual guitar playing and music theory (instead of equipment buying advice) I'm looking forward to the next chapter in my playing!
 

MissingSomethin

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To clarify, I don't consider any modern reissue an investment. I agree any modern guitar mass produced is NOT an investment, as there are just massive quantities. It's like the Franklin Mint scam. I'd pay $2000 for a re-issue just to play it with the expectation of $0 appreciation. I'd assume a loss, just as any consumer item like a TV or car.

I've seen 2 Fender pre-CBS refins for sale. One is asking $6000. The other is asking $18,000. Neither appeals to me. I'd rather pay $2000 for a reissue.
 


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