some Epiphone musing

[Kamen_Kaiju]

**seriously it's Epiphone musings, if you're not in the mood abandon thread! **

Spent a couple hours last night doing something I suspect a lot of us do, looking at Epiphones online. Isn't Sweetwater and Wildwood great for that?

Really been digging Black Customs lately, kinda dig the Cherryburst Prophecy Custom too but I think the neck is too thin. ..what's 'Speedtaper' mean anyway? ..that Black Cherry is kind of hot too.

So many cool Epiphones out these days. The Lee Malia, The JB, The Heafy,..6 string and 7 string Customs. ..Sure it comes with EMG's but nobody's perfect.

$400. Goldtops,...too cool.

I was thinking the other day Epiphones are kind of like Telecasters in that they make you work for it. You can pull some really great sounds out of them but it takes a decent amp and some work. They'll fight you a little bit but they'll reward you for it.

and out of the box you get like 80% of that Gibson sound for a fraction of 'that Gibson Price.'

That's pretty cool when you're considering a $500. Standard VS a $3,800. Standard.

And if you go nuts with modding, putting in some great parts/pups/caps/etc. you can probably bump that (completely made up number) percentage of 80 up to like 90%.

And then if you wrestle the guitar a bit,..really dig in and hit the strings hard,..push your amp a little bit,..vary your pick angle and where you hit the string,..you can get like 95% of the way there, (and even closer if the Epi has a real hard maple cap.)

and all for a fraction of the price, some mods and some muscle. What a world.

Man when I was a kid we just had crappy copies of LP's,...mine was a black Aspen Custom with Gold Hardware. Been thinking maybe that first one is why I've been looking at black Customs again lately.

But I remember when Epiphone first started putting out LP's,..maybe mid 90's? I remember the translucent series came out and I thought they were really cool and I got the LP bug again. ..I'd been playing Ibanezs up to then for a couple years. Ibanez and Jackson. ..dark days.

Ended up getting a Goldtop, a green translucent, a purple/red one, a yellow one,..I think that's it. I kept the Goldtop and the purple one.

Great guitars! Vintage style tuners, chrome covered humbuckers. ToM bridge,..that was awesome too because previous whammy bridges went out of tune when bending.

And then I look at Epiphone today 20 years later and they're still cranking out really cool guitars that make a great sound for a fraction of the price of the Big Guy.

and still improving with the new Probuckers and new models and finishes.


....now if we could just get them to polish the frets.

 

[Papa]

I have 2 Guilds, a Gibson LP, a Fender American Ash and 4 Epiphones.
(actually only 3....I just gave one to my grandson)

I've been playing Epi guitars since 1964. (wish I had never sold my Olympic)

My go to guitars are still my Epiphones.
And yes, the first thing I do is replace the nut and give them a fret dressing...
including cleaning up the fret ends.

That aside......
They are fantastic guitars!

Papa

 

[Comanche]

I can buy one Gibson about every two years or one Epiphone about every two months based on my budget, but I've always been good with math like that.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

yeah they're hard to beat price wise. I think you get a lot of guitar for your money.

while admitting that everyone's ears work and hear differently, what I hear when I made those earlier numbers up is..(see if you agree)...

a good Gibson is say 100% 'that sound', and it's going to give you 96% of that sound out of the box. And that other 4% is not hard to work for,..you don't have to wrestle it. It wants to give you that sound. It wants to sing with you. Quite frankly it's an easier guitar to play. It has a refined 'violin/instrument' feel to it. ..most of this feel I attribute to the lacquer though. But it has a great voice and wants to sing. But by putting in a little bit of work on the Gibson you'll get 100% of that sound. (if it's a good one.)

The Epiphone can be pushed into that voice. I think the Epi is a bit more 'working mans guitar',..like a Telecaster. Sure it's a fancy Telecaster,..but still. The strings will be a little higher, you have to dig in and use more/better pick techniques to pull the sounds out of them,..but The Sounds are in there. ..and from what I've heard lately with my own ears the Probucker pickups are miles above the old Alnico Classic pickups. They have some real treble and snap to them.

I like that in a PAF style pickup. Like when I hear what I think is a nice PAF it always seems to lean a little bit towards almost a p90'ish sound.

If you picture a graph in your head with typical humbuckers on the left, single coils on the right, and p90's in the middle bridging the 2 extremes,...good PAF style pickups to me always sound like they'd fall sort of in between the humbucker and the p90 in that graph,..leaning a little more towards the humbucker side. Having that warmth and fullness but still having bite and snap to it.

And to my ears a good Gibson with good PAF style pickups has this sound.

But for a long time to get that snap out of an Epi was a chore,...people ripped finishes off, changed out caps/knobs/pups/etc. and inched closer and closer to that sound.

Hell this section of the forum is a testament to Epi fans tone chasing. ..it's an awesome place.

But now out of the box Epis are really so much closer than they have ever been before. Playing the new ones lately with Probuckers and coil tapping I've just been really surprised how freakin' good they are right out of the box.

and didn't they bump up to using Switchcraft switches and jacks lately too? Or am I imagining that?

Seriously if they could just smooth and polish the frets so they aren't too gritty when they're new and instead feel a little glassy,..Epis would be perfect right out of the box.

but even then, though it's annoying, that gritty feeling goes away by just playing the thing. ..eh,..you still gotta wrestle 'em some. maybe that's just part of it.

 

[redcoats1976]

IMO if you have the tribute + guitar you might be 90% there,right out of the box.henry switching gibson production to china would probably end the brand.there would be no reason to spend 3 or4 times the price of an epi to buy a chibson...BTW what can i use to polish the frets on my epis easily?i have noticed the grittiness is going away but i want smooth frets like on my rickenbacker.

 

[gsmacleod]

When I got my first Les Paul in 2001, my ultimate plan was to play it for a while and when I could afford it, replace it with a "real" Les Paul. This was both due to me wanting a guitar that said Gibson and the wisdom at the time that said Epis were only good if you completely upgraded them and then they were still only a poor imitation.

The more I played it, the less I wanted a Gibson; I've tried them a bunch of times and while many have been better (nothing that was lights out better) I haven't yet played one that made me think I needed to spend Gibson prices to get a Les Paul. Instead, I've stuck with my Standard as my #1.

The other thing that has kept with with Epi's is that I like to have a variety of good players with different tonal options. So my second Les Paul was a '56 Goldtop - didn't have anything with P90's and love Goldtops so that was a good fit. Then a Silverburst Custom - primarily because I'm a fan of Tool and have always liked the look. Finally got a Bonamassa GT as I stumbled across a good deal and figured I couldn't miss.

There are a few I would like to have but right now I'm hoping that Epi releases a '54 Custom - that's (for now) the only Les Paul I feel I "need" to add to the collection.

Shane

 

[The_Sentry]

Just get a Standard (or a '56 GT if they still do P-90s), and tweak it as you like.

Anything more...it's not worth it.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

So my second Les Paul was a '56 Goldtop - didn't have anything with P90's and love Goldtops so that was a good fit. Then a Silverburst Custom - primarily because I'm a fan of Tool and have always liked the look. Finally got a Bonamassa GT as I stumbled across a good deal and figured I couldn't miss.

as well as a Standard? sounds like a nice collection.

 

[SkaneatelesLake]

Good thread and some interesting observations! After being away from playing, I got back into it a few years ago after the kids went to college and I had some free time. I really enjoy shopping, buying, and selling the ones I don't bond with. I like playing and having a collection. Saying that, I have sold a few that just weren't right. One of the ones that is right is my Epi Tribute +! It is almost perfect and I got it new for under $500. I do the same as you looking at Sweetwater and others for all the great Epi guitars that are available. Again, good thread!

 

[Papa]

....BTW what can i use to polish the frets on my epis easily?i have noticed the grittiness is going away but i want smooth frets like on my rickenbacker.

Everyone is different but, I find these quite good:
STEWMAC.COM - Micro-Mesh Soft Touch Finishing Pads
(Just make sure to protect your fretboard with masking tape.)
I usually start with around 3600 - 4000 grit and move up from there.

But first.....before polishing...
I find this useful for cleaning up rough fret ends (and many other things):
STEWMAC.COM - Fret Dressing Stick
Again, remember to protect surrounding areas.

Papa

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

I'd like to hear someone who's familiar with The Standard slimtaper D shaped (chunky imo) neck to compare it to the Trib+ neck or the Prophecy neck if they have any experience with it. I'm curious how 'Speedtaper' compares to 'Slimtaper.'

The JB neck was pretty cool, I was surprised how big a difference the big C shape felt compared to the D.

I think the Standard Epi D Slimtaper neck is absolutely the most perfect neck.

And it seems they haven't changed it because my students 2014 PTPro feels just like my 2010 Standard.

A meaty neck with some shoulder, like Goldilocks porridge. Not too fat, not too thin. Great for bending but you can play fast on it too.

 

[gsmacleod]

as well as a Standard? sounds like a nice collection.

Yup I'm pretty happy with it!

Shane

 

[The_Sentry]

Here's an idea for you Mal...

Get this one. It's on sale.

Epiphone Les Paul Red Royale PRO Electric Guitar Red Pearl | Musician's Friend

Then put a set of these in it.

Seymour Duncan AHB-1 Blackouts Humbucker Set with Metal Covers | Musician's Friend

The Custom does have a slightly different neck, but the necks themselves do vary a little bit. (not much, but a little.)

This would also be another interesting one.

Epiphone Les Paul Custom Blackback PRO Electric Guitar Antique Ivory | Musician's Friend

Just remember: SOLID COLORS or you're really going to notice that plastic finish.

Good luck!

 

[Curmudgeon]

yeah they're hard to beat price wise. I think you get a lot of guitar for your money.

while admitting that everyone's ears work and hear differently, what I hear when I made those earlier numbers up is..(see if you agree)...

a good Gibson is say 100% 'that sound', and it's going to give you 96% of that sound out of the box. And that other 4% is not hard to work for,..you don't have to wrestle it. It wants to give you that sound. It wants to sing with you. Quite frankly it's an easier guitar to play. It has a refined 'violin/instrument' feel to it. ..most of this feel I attribute to the lacquer though. But it has a great voice and wants to sing. But by putting in a little bit of work on the Gibson you'll get 100% of that sound. (if it's a good one.)

The Epiphone can be pushed into that voice. I think the Epi is a bit more 'working mans guitar',..like a Telecaster. Sure it's a fancy Telecaster,..but still.
If you picture a graph in your head with typical humbuckers on the left, single coils on the right, and p90's in the middle bridging the 2 extremes,...good PAF style pickups to me always sound like they'd fall sort of in between the humbucker and the p90 in that graph,..leaning a little more towards the humbucker side. Having that warmth and fullness but still having bite and snap to it.

And to my ears a good Gibson with good PAF style pickups has this sound.

But for a long time to get that snap out of an Epi was a chore,...

I like your analogies. Epi's are a lot like a good Chicago Polish sausage....."working class." Several years ago the Trib interviewed the president of Vienna Beef, and he said the secret is using natural casing, so you have to work a little to eat it. And the words he used were "bite and snap." Coincidence? I think not!

 

[The_Sentry]

Malikon, I'm gonna leave you with one more remark on this thread. You're not gonna like it, but I'll let you have it anyway.

Right now you want to experiment and branch out with these guitars. That's cool. I did it, so what can I really say about it either way?

What you WILL figure out sooner or later:

It will come down to the realization that when it comes to this specific brand of guitar, you're going to end up wanting one thing from it more than anything else as far as a sound and a feel, and you'll either end up with just one (like me) or a bunch of Epis that kinda/sorta sound and feel alike....because it always comes down to the player, what a player likes hearing, and no matter what you play...you're always gonna sound like you.

2 cents.

 

[Dolebludger]

I too just have one Epi -- the one in my avatar -- and it is on my "A" list. It has had considerable mods, but total cost was still under the cost of a stock Gibson 56 GT P90 -- about 75% under it. I used to play a REAL Gibson 56 GT P 90 back in the early 60, and I also gave a new Gibson 60s Tribute with GT and P 90s a try, I like my Epi better than either of those. It is no insult to Epi that they have produced only one guitar that really caught my fancy. Some makers (like Gretch) have failed to do either that. My only problem with the Epi GT is that the neck is a bit thick for may tastes -- but so was the one on the actual Gibson 56 GT, so I guess it is historically correct.

I have difficulties understanding guys who own just a bunch of Epis (or a bunch of any other brand). I'd rather "spread out" and have multiple guitar brands. You can really get different sounds and feels that way.

 

[Ronaldo]

Before I even read Mals thread I was thinking last night while looking at my antique '96 MIK standard gold top hanging on my office wall, what a great guitar it is. I was looking over the finish the color the binding the deep rich mahogany finish on back I was also hearing in my head the great sound that erupts out of her now with all the mods I have made, knowing that the cost of this used old girl plus the upgrades are nothing compared to what its expensive kin would go for, I thought to myself, is an Epiphone Les Paul one of the best kept secrets in the world of guitars?
Not to you all here, but to the uninformed I mean.

 

[lovekeiiy]

I haven't been playing very long. I haven't handle a GIbson Les Paul. I've only own a Epiphone Les Paul--Special II and Tirb+.

I just don't get the it's not a real Les Paul. For me, Les Paul is a body shape. Since the electronics can be changed. Maybe the wood used will be factor in it's sound, but electronics are more influential on sound.

To me, I look at it more as just branding. Yes, I know there can be differences in the materials used. But we see this with cars such as Toyota vs Lexus, Nissan vs Infiniti, Honda vs Accura, and so forth. Using that, the Toyota Camery chasis is the same one used in the Lexus ES3xx series. There some differences, but it's still the same basic car.

I think people, in general, are just enamored with the name on the headstock. It's probably because of lot of people's favorite guitarist play on Gibson. Playing on one probably makes one feel little closer to be like that icon. Thus, knowing it says Gibson just automatically sounds better to them. I'm not saying an Epiphone, such as Tribute Plus or so forth, will sound exactly the like Gibson, but that's because every guitar has it's own sound. And what sounds good is rather subjective.

I just question how much of this argument is more mental than anything else. Plus, I've never really seen what a "real" Les Paul other than it being from Gibson.

Like some others, I think one may be better served by varying guitar collection, different brands, models, and so forth. Although, I would be kind of cool to get nice Gibson Les Paul, but that seems a lot money for little difference in what I already have. I think my next guitar will be a nice hollow or semi-holloy body, something similar to a Casino.

Then again, maybe I'm just too ignorant to know any better.

 

[paruwi]

I haven't been playing very long. I haven't handle a GIbson Les Paul. I've only own a Epiphone Les Paul--Special II and Trib+.

I just don't get the it's not a real Les Paul. For me, Les Paul is a body shape. Since the electronics can be changed. Maybe the wood used will be factor in it's sound, but electronics are more influential on sound.
...........
Then again, maybe I'm just too ignorant to know any better.

'Real' Les Pauls are guitars with his name on it, produced by Gibson or Epiphone...
all others are 'Les Paul type' guitars,
or like Gibson says 'Other single Cut' guitars...

 

[lovekeiiy]

'Real' Les Pauls are guitars with his name on it, produced by Gibson or Epiphone...

Unfortunately, there seems to be some inconsistency in the definition because I see quite a bit people who refer to the Epiphones as not real either, usually "almost real." It's like the think of them as the ugly step child.