Soloing over those damn crazy 7th chords

[Thumpalumpacus]

yah, the Kirk Hammet/Dave Mustaine trick.

That was some of my first, "why?" moments. They/He did it alot on 'Kill em All.'

I stole it from Eric Johnson.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

uh,...I think you're overthinking it.

Probably, I make things more complicated than they need to be sometimes.

G#min7 and Emaj7 are mostly enharmonic:

G#min7 = G# B D# F#
Emaj7 = E G# B D#

Because they share 75% of their notes, you can substitute one for the other in a progression depending on the mood you wish to set, or you can play either chord over either bass note and get both.

 

[Electric_Sunshine]

What.

I don't know the theory.

But I find it easy as hell.

I thought it was just logic.

Wut.

So confused.

How don't people know this.

Weh.

 

[John Vasco]

I'm completely bamboozled again... Pass me my brown trousers and service revolver...!!!

 

[12watt]

I'm completely bamboozled again... Pass me my brown trousers and service revolver...!!!

I find that trying to follow a thread that starts with a simple explanation nigh on impossible. I stick to page one.

...so, let me get this straight, there are five notes in a pentatonic scale?

 

[Pinkie]

Very interesting, may have a go at it.

 

[bscenefilms]

Thanks, Mal. Great stuff.

Something I have been messing with lately is chromatic shifting of the pentatonic. Let's say you have a C Maj progression that you are soloing over. You play a riff in Am, then repeat it at A#m then resolve it to CMaj. Some interesting sounds there (obviously the chord progression has to lend itself).

 

[bscenefilms]

About a year ago I wrote a tune to break out of my familiar patterns that used a lot of 7th chords and comped a little solo over it. You can hear it here: http://www.b-scenefilms.com/butterline.mp3

Now, I want to go back and re-do the melody line with your trick here, Mal.

 

[Phil47uk]

I love the way these threads turn into rocket science..

Malikons original post was simply to share a few ideas with people and hopefully get them to experiment around with a few different sounds.
Hopefully they have done that and found out for themselves what sounds good and what doesn't to their ear.

One can get seriously bogged down with all the theory when things get out of hand, which they inevitably do in forums with substitutions for substitutions and in depth exchanges about chord inversions etc etc.

I have seen modes explained on you-tube which quite frankly sound so complicated no wonder people steer clear of them.
In actual fact they are simplicity itself and If you can play a diatonic scale then you know the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian modes.

One must not forget that it doesn't matter how many modes and chords one knows, it's what it sounds like when you play it that matters.. Does it sound melodic, does it flow? Simply knowing a lot about theory doesn't make one a good musician.

Glean some information from posts like Mali's and experiment..That's what it's all about. I'ts like finding new recipes.. Wow! I'll try that sauce next time. Nah that sauce doesn't really go with that etc.
I know plenty of music teachers who know far more than I do about musical theory. The problem is they have spent so much time drooling over sheets of paper and books that they have omitted applying it into their own instrument and consequently sound as if they are playing with a steel rod stuck up their arse.
Music is not just about flash arpeggios and mind bending chord substitutions. It's a case of finding yourself and being able to tell an interesting story.
One should take ideas that people have posted in here or anywhere for that matter and work them to see if you can use them in your repertoire.

I sometimes get the impression that many people snub these type of threads simply because they think they are for high brow musical experts and the quantum physicists of the music world.

Far from it.. As far as I am concerned the older I have got the more I am impressed by simplicity. Just because you know a mode doesn't make you a musical expert.. It gives you more scope agreed, but then in the final analysis it's what you do with it.

There was a great story about the time Segovia nearly gave up guitar.
He was at a party and Django Reinhardt had just been playing a piece.
Segovia went up to him and said " Marvellous, where can I buy the sheet music?" Reinhardt shrugged his shoulders and said.. " I don't know, I just made it up as I went along ."
Evidently Segovia went outside and nearly burst into tears.

Don't get too bogged down thinking about things like this is the tonic of that and this is the sub dominant of that.. Simply use your ears and feel what you play learning as you go. If you don't, you'll get so bogged down you may miss the plot entirely.

And finalise my rantings for the day here's a nice little story for you .
Many years ago I was in a west end store with my friend Izzy who was Dakota Statons bass player and he was trying out a new bass..
He started a lovely swing thing and I joined in comping round some chords.
Suddenly the door opened a big fat black guy came in beaming all over his face.. " yeah man, I dig, can I join in? ".. We nodded to him and he sat down at a Fender Rhodes.. All I can say was " F*cking hell"...
He was playing boogie octaves with his left hand and didn't even ask what key we were in. After about ten minutes he looked at his watch and said " "Gotta run now boys, catch you later " and left as quickly as he appeared.
I turned to the store owner and said.. " Who the f*ck was that ?"
He replied. " You twat Phil didn't you recognise him?".
" I think I have seen him somewhere " I said..
" That was Oscar Peterson" he grinned.

What a man.. No issues or big head. He just heard some music and wanted to join in, Modes, Schmodes? ..The guy simply played what he felt with all his heart..
I was a very humbled man that day believe me..

Share and enjoy..

 

[jordans0nly]

Malikon, NONE of this makes sense to me, wish it did, lol.

Feel like SUCH a noob..

 

[bscenefilms]

Simplicity is always my goal. Yet I love incredibly complex harmony.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

Malikon, NONE of this makes sense to me, wish it did, lol.

Feel like SUCH a noob..

Sorry for that, I really thought it was kind of a simple idea. At it's heart it's just shifting to a different pentatonic over each chord. You could expand on that to include the actual 7 note minor/major scales, or adding arpeggios. But at it's heart it's really pretty simple.

I really think if it's played with, it will reveal itself like it did to me.

Play your pentatonic scale in the 4th position and let your low E ring.

Actually, hit an Emaj7 chord a few times first to get your ears used to hearing it. Then play pent in the 4th while the low string rings.

Your ears should find that overall you're forming that chord, with your notes. You'll hear that D#, G#, B, hitting against your 'root' of that low E string.

Your fingers already know how to do all this stuff. It's just applying it in a new way over a different chord.

Everyone (for the most part) knows the pent scale and a maj7 chord. It's just probably we've never tried playing the scale over these chords.

It's kinda like with the modes thing, it doesn't make sense until you hear it against something. Otherwise it's just a scale. But then you hear that scale over a 'new' chord, and it works in a different way.

I had a good conversation with Boles last night in PM about that. How if you play F# minor pentatonic over A major, you're not 'really' playing F#m pentatonic,...you're playing A major.

Sure your fingers and eyes tell you you're making the F#pent 'shape', but your ears are telling you it's A major.

Trust your ears, they rarely lie.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm completely bamboozled again... Pass me my brown trousers and service revolver...!!!

You have a pair of britches that ain't brown?

One must not forget that it doesn't matter how many modes and chords one knows, it's what it sounds like when you play it that matters.. Does it sound melodic, does it flow?

Indeed, all theory is, is a system of labels that eases the task of thinking about musical ideas.

Simply knowing a lot about theory doesn't make one a good musician

Of course not. No one's said that it does.

 

[Phil47uk]

Sorry for that, I really thought it was kind of a simple idea. At it's heart it's just shifting to a different pentatonic over each chord. You could expand on that to include the actual 7 note minor/major scales, or adding arpeggios. But at it's heart it's really pretty simple.

I really think if it's played with, it will reveal itself like it did to me.

Play your pentatonic scale in the 4th position and let your low E ring.

Actually, hit an Emaj7 chord a few times first to get your ears used to hearing it. Then play pent in the 4th while the low string rings.

Your ears should find that overall you're forming that chord, with your notes. You'll hear that D#, G#, B, hitting against your 'root' of that low E string.

Your fingers already know how to do all this stuff. It's just applying it in a new way over a different chord.

Everyone (for the most part) knows the pent scale and a maj7 chord. It's just probably we've never tried playing the scale over these chords.

It's kinda like with the modes thing, it doesn't make sense until you hear it against something. Otherwise it's just a scale. But then you hear that scale over a 'new' chord, and it works in a different way.

I had a good conversation with Boles last night in PM about that. How if you play F# minor pentatonic over A major, you're not 'really' playing F#m pentatonic,...you're playing A major.

Sure your fingers and eyes tell you you're making the F#pent 'shape', but your ears are telling you it's A major.

Trust your ears, they rarely lie.

I think the big problem arrises with guitarists unlike most other instruments is that many learn a few pentatonic scales and some power chords and go off and join a band only to find later that they are stuck in a rut and limited as to what they can do.

If only teachers, or the pupils themselves would approach playing guitar as if they were constructing a jigsaw puzzle, they could save themselves a lot of headaches.
Many guitarists have three bits of puzzle here and five bits there, but can't connect it to the overall picture.
So if we were to start a jigsaw puzzle, how would we approach it?
Of course we would start with the corners and the straight edges.
And of course we can also do that with music..
Show people how primary chords are constructed from the diatonic scale and their relationship.
With these primary chords you have a solid foundation to build upon, as most other chords are only an extension of these.
It's a bit like an artists palette . The primary chords give you primary colours.. Major.. Bright red..Minor dark blue.. Dominant 7th, happy yellow.
Ask a child to paint you a red flower and they will always paint it with an overall red. But if we look at that flower we can see lighting effects the colour tones... Purples.. Browns..Pinks etc.
So we can now find these by harmonising the scale adding another third on top of our triad and creating the 7th chords.. Maj 7th..Dreamy purple.. Minor 7th.. A lighter shade of blue..etc etc..

I love people to hear chords as shades of colour or imaginary scenes.

Take a 12 bar blues... Say | A / / / |D / / / |.. Imagine the scene.. A guy just lost his job and girl, wandering the streets of a city.. It's raining and you can see the neon lights reflecting in the puddles.. He walks into a dimly lit night club and there's a woman sitting on her own at the bar drowning her sorrows..Shall he join her?
Now play the A to D and it sounds far too bright for that sort of scenario..Far too bright and strong. ( Which he isn't feeling )

So let's play an A7 as the first chord and a D9 as the second..
Wow! Instantly we have a sleezy 3am in the morning nightclub feel.

Yeah knowing some theory can certainly help you load more tonal colours onto your palette.. But without imagination it means nothing...

I wish more people would explore the basics of musical theory.. It's actually quite simple and it would enhance their lives no end.

Of course you will always get the characters who say " Theory cramps your style man" which basically means 'I'm a lazy bastard and don't have time.' But hey..That's their loss, not ours..

 

[Gin&Pentatonic]

I love the way these threads turn into rocket science..

Malikons original post was simply to share a few ideas with people and hopefully get them to experiment around with a few different sounds.
Hopefully they have done that and found out for themselves what sounds good and what doesn't to their ear.

One can get seriously bogged down with all the theory when things get out of hand, which they inevitably do in forums with substitutions for substitutions and in depth exchanges about chord inversions etc etc.

I have seen modes explained on you-tube which quite frankly sound so complicated no wonder people steer clear of them.
In actual fact they are simplicity itself and If you can play a diatonic scale then you know the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian modes.

One must not forget that it doesn't matter how many modes and chords one knows, it's what it sounds like when you play it that matters.. Does it sound melodic, does it flow? Simply knowing a lot about theory doesn't make one a good musician.

Glean some information from posts like Mali's and experiment..That's what it's all about. I'ts like finding new recipes.. Wow! I'll try that sauce next time. Nah that sauce doesn't really go with that etc.
I know plenty of music teachers who know far more than I do about musical theory. The problem is they have spent so much time drooling over sheets of paper and books that they have omitted applying it into their own instrument and consequently sound as if they are playing with a steel rod stuck up their arse.
Music is not just about flash arpeggios and mind bending chord substitutions. It's a case of finding yourself and being able to tell an interesting story.
One should take ideas that people have posted in here or anywhere for that matter and work them to see if you can use them in your repertoire.

I sometimes get the impression that many people snub these type of threads simply because they think they are for high brow musical experts and the quantum physicists of the music world.

Far from it.. As far as I am concerned the older I have got the more I am impressed by simplicity. Just because you know a mode doesn't make you a musical expert.. It gives you more scope agreed, but then in the final analysis it's what you do with it.

There was a great story about the time Segovia nearly gave up guitar.
He was at a party and Django Reinhardt had just been playing a piece.
Segovia went up to him and said " Marvellous, where can I buy the sheet music?" Reinhardt shrugged his shoulders and said.. " I don't know, I just made it up as I went along ."
Evidently Segovia went outside and nearly burst into tears.

Don't get too bogged down thinking about things like this is the tonic of that and this is the sub dominant of that.. Simply use your ears and feel what you play learning as you go. If you don't, you'll get so bogged down you may miss the plot entirely.

And finalise my rantings for the day here's a nice little story for you .
Many years ago I was in a west end store with my friend Izzy who was Dakota Statons bass player and he was trying out a new bass..
He started a lovely swing thing and I joined in comping round some chords.
Suddenly the door opened a big fat black guy came in beaming all over his face.. " yeah man, I dig, can I join in? ".. We nodded to him and he sat down at a Fender Rhodes.. All I can say was " F*cking hell"...
He was playing boogie octaves with his left hand and didn't even ask what key we were in. After about ten minutes he looked at his watch and said " "Gotta run now boys, catch you later " and left as quickly as he appeared.
I turned to the store owner and said.. " Who the f*ck was that ?"
He replied. " You twat Phil didn't you recognise him?".
" I think I have seen him somewhere " I said..
" That was Oscar Peterson" he grinned.

What a man.. No issues or big head. He just heard some music and wanted to join in, Modes, Schmodes? ..The guy simply played what he felt with all his heart..
I was a very humbled man that day believe me..

Share and enjoy..

I'm still trying to find the right happy medium. I do have an interest in theory because I like to see the "guts" of what I'm doing but at the same time it's like "damn I'll just play till I find what works because I just wanna PLAY". It goes back and forth.

I love theory, just in small, stomachable doses.

 

[Phil47uk]

I'm still trying to find the right happy medium. I do have an interest in theory because I like to see the "guts" of what I'm doing but at the same time it's like "damn I'll just play till I find what works because I just wanna PLAY". It goes back and forth.

I love theory, just in small, stomachable doses.

Yeah, that's exactly how you should take it..In small doses.. People who sit there trying to cram ten years experience into two months are deluding themsleves.

If you are going to be a good mechanic, you've got to know how to build and engine from the ground up. It's no use just being able to change a spark plug and top up the oil.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

But without imagination it means nothing...

 

[John Vasco]

You have a pair of britches that ain't brown?

Oh, Thump Man, this is what I used to wear on stage:


The girls used to want these trousers. Well they used to ask if they could take them off for me...!

 

[jordans0nly]

Well my problem is, I've wasted a lot of years just noodling around my self, not learning a thing. I couldn't do a simple scale if I had to.

Where do I start?

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

Learn the open chords, the pentatonic scale, the minor scale, the major scale,...see how they apply to the open chords.

Learn the 3 notes that make up each open chord.

Start finding the inversions of those 3 notes as they move down the neck.

and most importantly, have fun.