Soloing over those damn crazy 7th chords

[Kamen_Kaiju]

First, let me apologize for posting this here and not the music section. But it was such a "Eureka!" moment for me I really felt strongly that it was something I needed to share with other rock/blues guitarists, and I wanted as many people as possible to be able to benefit from this 'trick.'

Like a lot of rock/blues guitar players. Those "Jazz Chords" can be confusing to solo over. Do I use the root of the chord? Do I just try to 'highlight' the 7 note but still conduct business as usual? Decisions, Decisions.....

I figured out a great trick for dealing with this situation. For some of you guys, especially Jazz/Theory guys, this may be old hat stuff. But for redneck rockers like myself, this could be just the little 'trick' you've been looking for.

In the example I'm playing a simple chord progression made up of 7th chords. The progression is:

Emaj7, Cmaj7, Emaj7, Cmaj7, Emaj7, Cmaj7, Gmaj7, Am7, Emaj7

The 'trick' is instead of thinking of the root and major tonality of the chord, focus on the the third of the chord, and play the opposite of it's tonality. For example over E7 which is a MAJOR chord, what is the third? It's a G#. So I make my root G# and make it MINOR.

Believe it or not, you can actually play G# minor pentatonic licks over E7, and it sounds 'right.'

So over that chord progression I'm actually thinking:
G#m, Em, G#m, Em, G#m, Em, Bm, C, G#m

So you end up with something like:

Emaj7, Cmaj7, Emaj7, Cmaj7, Emaj7, Cmaj7, Gmaj7 , Am7, Emaj7 (Rhythm)
G#m, Em, G#m, Em, G#m, Em, Bm, C, G#m (Lead)

To be as clear as possible. The G#m Pentatonic WILL NOT WORK over the entire progression. You must change your scale/arpeggio for each chord.

I hope this makes sense. This really is a great trick, and it was such a "Eureka!" moment when I figured it out, I knew it was something that had to be shared.

Please experiment with this and other chord progressions utilizing 7 chords. I promise you if you're persistent you will see a totally different view of playing over 'Those Crazy 7's'

Let them no longer be a mystery.

Rock on, my axe slingin' brothers.

-M-

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGb83c6Lv8I&list=UU5zY5fCwu2z0MCf_dFX2W9Q&index=1&feature=plcp[/ame]
*I know it's hardly an 'awesome' improv, but it does demonstrate the thinking behind this trick.

I hope you enjoy.

 

[blakem]

Very cool!!

 

[Lurko]

I came here to rock and roll. And you want me to do math?

 

[Tim Fezziwig]

I'll try this. I need some NEW in my playing. Thank You Daddy!

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

@Lurko

But that's why it's an awesome trick. No math involved.

It's jazz for rock brains!

Imo it's fuggin' brilliant, 'cause even my dumb ass can do it!

All you gotta do is think, "Make third the root, switch major/minor"

Someone says, "Hey, play over this Bbmaj7" most rock guys (myself included) would go, "The hell?"

But now I can quickly go, "Sh*t! What's the third of Bb? D! so Dm!" (commence to rocking)

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's sweet. When you think about it, what's going on here is applying modal thinking to pentatonic scales.

 

[Gin&Pentatonic]

Of course you had to post this when I'm at the office and nowhere near a guitar

Can't wait to get home and try this. Thanks for sharing.

I'm one of those guys that just plays minor pentatonic in whatever key the progression is, regardless of whether it's major or minor because I just suck like that. How does soloing over the progression that way sound different than the way you've just described?

 

[Phil47uk]

Nice thread Malikon...

I did a thing a while back over in the lesson forum about pentatonics which basically takes in what you have said except adding the major seventh and minor seventh chords as well as the dominant 7th.
I'll paste it up here again..

Pentatonics over Major 7th chords.

You can play pentatonic scales based on the 1st...2nd and 5th degrees of a major scale over a Maj7th chord.

e.g. Chord Cmaj7th

C major scale

C D E F G A B

Therefore over the Chord of Cmaj 7th

Pentatonics used.. C major pent... Or Am pent.
D major pent.........." Bm pent.
G major pent.........." Em pent




Pentatonics over minor 7th chords

Pentatonics scales can be played based on the minor 3rd... 4th..And flat7 th of a natural minor scale.

Chord Cminor 7th..

C natural minor scale.. C D Eb F G A Bb

Therefore over the chord of Cminor7th

Pentatonics used. Eb major pent.......Or Cminor pent.
F major pent.........." Dminor pent
Bb major pent........" Gm pent.





Pentatonics over dominant seventh chords.

You can play pentatonics based on the 1st.....minor 3rd.......flat 7th of a minor seventh scale.

Chord C7th

C minor seventh scale. C D Eb F G A Bb


Therefore over the chord of C7th.

Pentatonics used... Cmaj pent.........Or Am pent.
Eb maj pent........" Cm pent
Bb maj pent......." Gm pent.





Now some of these may sound a bit weird to the ear, simply because the functions of the notes in the scale have changed against the chord..
Experiment and see what you like the sound of.

The usual thing is to say play C minor pent against a C minor chord, but now try this one.. Play your Cmaj7th chord and now play the scale of Eminor pentatonic against it..

C Maj 7th

C minor7th ( Cm7)

C7th

Have some fun playing around with sounds.

Sorry that things don't line up properly.. They are perfect in Word, but when you paste then on the forum they are all out of line..[/QUOTE]

 

[John Vasco]

Like a feckin' foreign language to me. Plug the bastard in and hit it, that's what I say...!

 

[Phil47uk]

Great to think outside the box with pentatonics...
As Malikon said. You can get some great sounds with the scales you already know and the chords you already know.. Except before you didn't think of putting those scales with those chords..

Here's a nice one to try..

Play Dmaj7th and against that play the scale of F#minor pentatonic.
Now change the chord to C9 and against that play the scale of F major leaning on the C note ( In other words you are playing C Mixolydian )

So against the Dmaj7th chord try soloing round F#m pentatonic.

----------------------------------------5--7---9---
----------------------------------5--7-------------
-----------------------2---4---6------------------
-----------------2--4-----------------------------
---------2---4------------------------------------
--2--5--------------------------------------------

And over the C9 chord switch scale to F. ( C Mixolydian mode ).

------------------------------------------10-12-13
------------------------------10-11-13----------=
----------------7-9-10-12------------------------
-------7-8-10------------------------------------
-8-10--------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

Of course you had to post this when I'm at the office and nowhere near a guitar

Can't wait to get home and try this. Thanks for sharing.

I'm one of those guys that just plays minor pentatonic in whatever key the progression is, regardless of whether it's major or minor because I just suck like that. How does soloing over the progression that way sound different than the way you've just described?

Well, because you'd be focused on the root of the chord and it wouldn't really sound 7'ish.

An Emaj7 is made up of E, B, D#, G#
if you just play Em pent you're using E, G, A, B, D

So right away you see there's going to be some clashing happening with the G,G# and the D,D#

This imo is why alot of rock/blues guys playing Root Pent over a 7 sounds.........well, not so awesome.

So instead you take that Emaj7 chord, made up of E, B, D#, G#

and you think, "G#m" Which would be G#, B, D#

See what just happened? Now those notes that might've clashed, work for you and not against you. The only thing you're really leaving out, is E. But since the bass/rhythm is more then likely taking care of that E for you, you don't need it.

Try this:

Tune your guitar and let your low E string ring, just keep hitting it every few notes.

Now in the 4th position, play your G# minor pentatonic licks so you can hear them against that root of E (because your string should still be ringing, try not to bump it.)

So now against that low ringing E, and your note choices, you're actually forming an Emaj7 chord. Of course trust your ears, try to hang and play with the notes and licks that sound best to you.

The other thing is you can't just hang on a single root. G#m wouldn't work nonstop over that entire progression. You have to change your thinking a bit for each chord. But it really works!

And don't just think Pentatonic, think of arpeggios too. A G#m arpeggio over Emaj7,...sounds right.

In the video I posted I sweep Bm and C, over the Gmaj7 and Am7, and to my ears it totally works.

I'm no Zen Guitar Master and certainly no theory expert. I just play my guitar a lot and find weird little tricks and things that make sense to me.

But this particular trick I found so mind blowing and useful, I felt like I'd be being a really selfish a**hole if I just kept it to myself and didn't share and try to demonstrate it.

I know major chords and 7th chords can be really frustrating for rock/blues guys like myself.

Btw this trick works even when it's not a 7th chord. The whole relative major/minor thing.

Like if someone is playing an Em chord, you can play Em pent and it'll work fine, but you can also play Gmajor, which will also work equally fine.

It's just,......breaking out of the box. Getting away from feeling like you have to use the pentatonic box because you don't know what else to do.

Don't get me wrong, I love Pentatonic and use it all the time. But I want options and I never want to feel stuck to one section of the board. I want to play wherever I feel like putting my hand, and be able to grab the notes that make the most sense over the chord I'm playing over.

Hopefully that wasn't too long winded an explanation. I'm a bit excited over figuring out this trick and might be rambling.

Like a feckin' foreign language to me. Plug the bastard in and hit it, that's what I say...!

I think exactly the same. But I want to know what I'm hitting and why.

 

[Phil47uk]

Like a feckin' foreign language to me. Plug the bastard in and hit it, that's what I say...!

F*cking Scouse Philistine...

 

[Phil47uk]

Great thread Mali old boy...
You realise Vasco will have to go and have a bag of chips after reading that lot..

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

The cool thing is, say your friend is playing just power chords with distortion.

E5, C5, G5, A5

That same posted progression, but rocking power chords.

If you force yourself to use this trick, your note choices and leads will totally make it sound like Emaj7, Cmaj7, Gmaj7, Am7

YOU can be the leading voice that controls the overall tonality of the entire group and progression.

And that my friends,...is power!

Great thread Mali old boy...
You realise Vasco will have to go and have a bag of chips after reading that lot..

Thank you Sir. Means much coming from you.

 

[John Vasco]

I'm still tryna find that D# note in E7 that Mali mentions. Not on my feckin' fingerboard, matey, or have the rules of music been changed...?

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

i'm still tryna find that d# note in e7 that mali mentions. Not on my feckin' fingerboard, matey, or have the rules of music been changed...?

e7

-7-----b
-9-----g#
-8-----d#
-9-----b
-7-----e
-0-----e

oh wait, I think I should've written Emaj7 *doh!*

You're right, let me fix the original posts.

Like I said, I'm not a theory guy. I just rock n roll. I just like to give myself more options then the 'typical' rock n roller. Believe me, at heart it's all power chords and pentatonics, lol.

By all means if I ever say something wrong, please correct me. Because I don't want to give anyone wrong information, and because I need to know for myself personally.

I'm still figuring all this stuff out myself as well.

 

[SteveGangi]

Like a feckin' foreign language to me. Plug the bastard in and hit it, that's what I say...!

Same here. On a "brainiac" level I sort of understand, but sitting at the work desk here (don't tell anyone lol), and not being able to HEAR it, makes it tough to connect with.

 

[John Vasco]

And Mali, don't, for feck's sake, follow what Phil tells you! He's a teacher. He talks and plays in all those drunkaholic modes. But they mean jack-shit when you start entering the territory of double-stops, hammer-ons, pull-offs, double and triple string bends, which the ole Pensioner cockney twat cannot do!

Stick with Judge Vasco, matey, and you won't go far wrong.

Now where's that book that talks about the 'friskmybollock' mode...?

 

[MineGoesTo11]

I don't do anything as scientific, but I mess around a lot with pentatonic scales and just try to pull in outside notes to see what happens.

 

[Kamen_Kaiju]

Same here. On a "brainiac" level I sort of understand, but sitting at the work desk here (don't tell anyone lol), and not being able to HEAR it, makes it tough to connect with.

Think of it kind of like stacking chords on top of chords.

If someone plays Emaj7, and you play G#m, the overall sound will still be Emaj7.

It's "sorta" the same thing.

I noticed this first with the Pink Floyd song, "Money."

the bass player hits a B first, but when he hits that B, David G hits a D major chord. When I first noticed that a few months ago I just shook my head going, "Why? WTF?"

Which led to playing around with things and trying to figure out the why, and.....we'll. This is what I came up with.

When the bass hits B, and David hits D, it makes this overall Dm7 type sound.

It's really not complicated music theory stuff, I swear, if it were I probably wouldn't have figured it out.

That's one of my limitations as a player. I can read theory books until I'm blue and passed out. It just doesn't work for me. I kind of have to find these things on my own and ask myself why that happened, and then kind of reverse engineer the thing until it makes sense to me.

I need to know and understand the applications of the idea, before the Theory side of it makes sense to me.

Like I said, at heart I'm just a rocker. Turn up to 11 and hit some big chords.

And Mali, don't, for feck's sake, follow what Phil tells you! He's a teacher. He talks and plays in all those drunkaholic modes. But they mean jack-shit when you start entering the territory of double-stops, hammer-ons, pull-offs, double and triple string bends, which the ole Pensioner cockney twat cannot do!

Stick with Judge Vasco, matey, and you won't go far wrong.

Now where's that book that talks about the 'friskmybollock' mode...?

hahaha, I can't ignore someone trying to teach me something, I just can't. Every little bit helps.

Rest assured I really don't "follow" too many peoples advice though, I kind of have to walk my own road.

It's fascinating that after 25 years of playing I'm still finding all these little tricks and things. It's just..........never ending.

Guitar is fugging AWESOME!