Significant Tonal Improvement Changing Klusons for Grovers

[ErictheRed]

your statement is completely erroneous with regard to the topic discussed. slight additions or subtractions off mass are irrelevant. It is the improvement in the coupling of the stings to the headstock which creates the tonal difference or improvement noted.

Read my previous post, that's what I said as well. It's others that have been claiming that they can hear the difference in mass.

 

[Wrench66]

A set of Kluson tuners weighs about 5 ounces, and a set of Grovers about 8.5 ounces. Are we seriously suggesting that someone can hear the 3.5 ounce difference in tone...?

What I'm suggesting is that you watch the videos yourself. Johan has done experiments with different woods, weights, bridges, tail pieces, tuners, etc.

I have no idea if 5 oz of weight will make a difference, but a change in tuners could for all the different reasons mentioned above.

 

[ErictheRed]

It can’t be done. We can’t ‘hear’ the same psychoacoustics.

I'm actually skeptical that humans can strum or pick exactly the same way for two different takes. Some tonal change would be due to variation in where the string is struck, how hard, at what angle, with what kind of edge/surface, etc. Think of the huge difference in sound between a pinch harmonic and a simple pluck, or fingers vs. pick, or picking the string near the bridge vs. closer to the neck, etc. It's not entirely easy to do a proper comparison, and it would be very easy to fake a difference in tone if you wanted to by varying those things.

 

[Pageburst]

Read my previous post, that's what I said as well. It's others that have been claiming that they can hear the difference in mass.

Sorry, my bad then. In all honesty, I can‘t speak on tonal differences based solely on mass. I did try adding weight to the headstock but any difference in tone was subtle and was certainly not an improvement.

Again, my assertion (based on my experience) is that a more rigid, solid, “massive” tuner will provide a “better“ couple of string to headstock reducing energy dissipation through the tuner thereby allowing the string to more “cleanly“ ring out as was intended by the guitar‘s design.

 

[ErictheRed]

Sorry man My bad

No worries.

 

[boola1]

I'm actually skeptical that humans can strum or pick exactly the same way for two different takes. Some tonal change would be due to variation in where the string is struck, how hard, at what angle, with what kind of edge/surface, etc. Think of the huge difference in sound between a pinch harmonic and a simple pluck, or fingers vs. pick, or picking the string near the bridge vs. closer to the neck, etc. It's not entirely easy to do a proper comparison, and it would be very easy to fake a difference in tone if you wanted to by varying those things.

I bet Clapton coud do 2 identical takes of You look wonderful tonight.

 

[efstop]

I bet Clapton coud do 2 identical takes of You look wonderful tonight.

Who wants to hear that song once, let alone twice?

 

[GySgtFTL]

I'm a horrible guitar player so tone is not really a factor. However, I would swap tuners for the Grovers except that I can't get around the fact that there's an extra hole above each tuner. I have locking tuners on my Strats and I dig the ease of changing strings.

 

[PAPADON]

Grovers didn't seem to alter the tone all that much but when I switched over to that no name truss rod cover OMG. Seriously are you yanking my chain or what?

 

[PermissionToLand]

I could easily reply:
"You should listen to actual musical instruments instead of the consensus of your pseudo-scientific friends."
And that could develop into the useless argument we've seen so many times around here.

As I was implying.
Some get it, some don't.
Some hear it, some don't.

I respect that you obviously don't, although I wish for you that you could.
Just respect others that do.
That will be all.
Have a good night!

Yes, I suppose you could but it would not make any sense, considering I am talking about ACTUAL physics professors, not your buddy who made a rant that you thought sounded sciencey.

My point is clear; the human brain is a powerful thing and the placebo effect can seem incredibly real to those affected by it.

One test is worth a thousand theories.

Some people say that they can't hear a difference in tone between various tuners and others claim they can. I've found that when doing listening tests, some people just don't have the necessary attention span, and others just don't care. To make matters worse, most guitar amplifiers, cables, and speakers don't have excellent resolution and have so many sonic problems that can make it difficult to hear subtle differences in guitars.

You realize that science works by testing theories repeatedly until they are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, right?

That you think listening to something with your ears is a more rigorous, empirical test than recording and analyzing waveforms says everything.

 

[Scott A Novak]

You realize that science works by testing theories repeatedly until they are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, right?

It's been my experience that many proclaiming scientific test methods are far from scientific with their conclusions.

That you think listening to something with your ears is a more rigorous, empirical test than recording and analyzing waveforms says everything.

A perfect example of "scientific" interpretation gone wrong is the use of steady state harmonic distortion measurements used as a measure of fidelity. Unfortunately, when negative loop feedback is used, while it reduces the steady state harmonic distortion measurement, the lower the steady state harmonic distortion measurment is the WORSE the amplifier sounds, because the negative loop feedback increases the transient distortion.

Likewise, steady state frequency response measurements are meaningless because they don't take into account phase response. It was very common for cartridge manufacturers to NOT load their cartridges electrically until they were critically damped, as the cartridge would measure showing a higher frequency response, when it fact what was happening is that the cartridge was resonating with severe phase shifting. The sound was overly sibilant and harsh. When you loaded the cartridge to critically damp it, the steady state frequency response rolled off faster at the high frequencies, yet it sounded like the high frequencies were more extended. This is because when critically damped, the cartridge wont be shifting the phase so severely. The human ear is not very sensitive to frequency response variations, but it is extremely sensitive to phase shifting.

Scott Novak

 

[Scott A Novak]

While everyone is arguing Gibsons use of Klusons Vs Grover Rotomatics, consider that Gibson also sold guitars with Robotuners! Robotuners have got to be far more massive than the Rotomatics and I suspect that there would be a significant tonal difference if they were replaced with Rotomatics.

Scott Novak

 

[JCM900MkIII]

7 pages, didn't read everything...

Changing tuners comes down to also changing strings (a new set).

New strings always give me more sustain, clearer sound etc.
Could it be perception because of the string change?

 

[SWeAT hOg]

7 pages, didn't read everything...

Changing tuners comes down to also changing strings (a new set).

New strings always give me more sustain, clearer sound etc.
Could it be perception because of the string change?

Of course it is, along with mind tricks.

 

[Deek]

Not the same thing but I noticed a huge improvement in my Ibanez PM2 with new $100 Gotoh tuners. Made it a better guitar in every way. I did not expect it, but it happened!

 

[rednefceleb]

Yes it's no joke. I was upgrading my Jimmie Vaughan Strat. I installed Sperzal lockers. I thought I was playing a different guitar. What ring and sustain! The Sperzals are very heavy for one thing. I only opened up the holes just enough to "tap in" the tuning machines extremely tightly. (be careful on that) The tool that I used to bore out the tuner holes is the drum shaped sanding bit that comes with all Dremel tools. I didn't know that the fit would be so tight. Some people might be afraid to pound the Sperzals in for fear of breaking the headstock. Heavy, tight fitting tuners gives the same effect as clamping a weight on your headstock increasing ring and acoustic volume.

 

[Scott A Novak]

I installed Sperzal lockers. I thought I was playing a different guitar. What ring and sustain!

It should be noted that the Sperzel tuner bodies are made from aluminum, whereas many others are made from zinc. A hard aluminum alloy is very elastic and rings quite well, which is one reason that the bars on a vibraphone are made from aluminum. A hard aluminum alloy will absorb less sound than zinc. I'm very seriously leaning towards Sperzels for my next set of tuners.

You do want to be very careful not to have too much of an interference fit in the headstock or you will split it. Some wood will be more prone to splitting than others. I suppose that if you had a sloppy fit you could add filler to the holes and carefully hone the holes to size for a slight interference fit.

Scott Novak

 

[rednefceleb]

I take this as a joke .. so you say the new tuners changed the tone ,,, of your LP?!

That's a good one.

It should be noted that the Sperzel tuner bodies are made from aluminum, whereas many others are made from zinc. A hard aluminum alloy is very elastic and rings quite well, which is one reason that the bars on a vibraphone are made from aluminum. A hard aluminum allow will absorb less sound than zinc. I'm very seriously leaning towards Sperzels for my next set of tuners.

You do want to be very careful not to have too much of an interference fit in the headstock or you will split it. Some wood will be more prone to splitting than others. I suppose that if you had a sloppy fit you could add filler to the holes and carefully hone the holes to size for a slight interference fit.

Scott Novak

Thanks for the info. That's some heavy aluminium. The fit was on the verge of splitting maple. They were so tight that they could not be turned by hand. Using the barrel sander that is included in the few bits that Dremel supplies in their tool kit is great info. for anyone installing Sperzels.If you do use Sperzels check out all the colors that they offer. What is "an interference fit?

 

[Scott A Novak]

What is "an interference fit?

An interference fit is when what you are putting into a hole is very slightly larger than the hole, so that whatever you press into the hole slightly stretches the material around the hole. What you described is definitely an interference fit.

Usually you measure the hole size and measure the size of what you are putting into the hole. And then adjust the hole size until it is about one or two thousandths of an inch smaller than what you are pressing into the hole.

Scott Novak

 

[efstop]

If it's simply more mass on the headstock you're after, but you don't want to change your tuners, and you don't want some goofy aftermarket thingmabob, I think I have the answer.

Solid steel truss rod cover. Paint it black, it's totally stealth and that close to the truss rod, man, it's gotta sustain for weeks, eh?