Significant Tonal Improvement Changing Klusons for Grovers

Big Monk

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I just put the Klusons back on my Epi 50s Standard to have a reference. Had Grover’s on for about 9 months or so.
 

Dolebludger

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I just have a question. I just don’t understand how Grover’s weigh that much more than Klusons to cause headstock break. Has anybody weighed a set of each? And also, what model of each brand are we talking about. Like Kluson sells a model of tuners that appear to work like Grover’s, but at]re a no-drill replacement for classic Klusons. Regardless of the brand of tuners, the tight tuner/body connection is the key to any tonal benefit.
 

Big Monk

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I just have a question. I just don’t understand how Grover’s weigh that much more than Klusons to cause headstock break. Has anybody weighed a set of each? And also, what model of each brand are we talking about. Like Kluson sells a model of tuners that appear to work like Grover’s, but at]re a no-drill replacement for classic Klusons. Regardless of the brand of tuners, the tight tuner/body connection is the key to any tonal benefit.

I did notice when installing the Grovers and when pulling them today that their “collars”, i.e. the part that inserts into the headstock, was much more snug to the headstock than the Klusons were.

It was a noticeable difference as I had to push the Grovers in and wiggle them out.
 

Dolebludger

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Yes. I personally believe (with no proof at all beyond my own experience) that the strongest contact between strings and body increases primary sustain and tone. Now, perhaps not by much (especially at high volume and gain), but noticeable at lower volumes and gain. Thus, I like this tight contact of strings/body all the way from tuners to nut to bridge to tailpiece. I had vintage Kluson tuners on my one owner 1961 Gibson SG LP Standard. They wore out and were replaced with “vintage correct” Klusons. But it still doesn’t sound right to me.
 

Big Monk

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Yes. I personally believe (with no proof at all beyond my own experience) that the strongest contact between strings and body increases primary sustain and tone. Now, perhaps not by much (especially at high volume and gain), but noticeable at lower volumes and gain. Thus, I like this tight contact of strings/body all the way from tuners to nut to bridge to tailpiece. I had vintage Kluson tuners on my one owner 1961 Gibson SG LP Standard. They wore out and were replaced with “vintage correct” Klusons. But it still doesn’t sound right to me.

I haven’t had a chance to play a ton yet on the Klusons but by next string change, I’ll make the decision to keep them or put the Grovers back on.

Shortly after I got the guitar, I put the Faber E-Serts into it and swapped in a Gotoh ABR-1. The E-Serts are basically a machine, import sized stud which is solid and has an M4 post coming out of it. Those things took ALOT of force to seat all the way into the body. Same with the Faber steel TP studs.

I’m thinking I’ll go back to the Grovers but the Klusons look so damn good I had to give them another shot.
 

Dolebludger

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Kluson makes tuners that work like Grovers but have tuning keys that look like vintage Klusons. I bet they work and sound great.
 
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Big Monk

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Welp, Grovers are back on. Not that there was anything wrong with the Klusons but I need a set of tuners to sweeten a deal for an acoustic husk and the Grovers are not going anywhere!
 

GlynR

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Is this a joke ?
Lots of people makes changes to guitars and then they hear what they WANT to hear. I just don't see how changing the tuners is going to affect the sustain or the tone. Changing from poor quality tuners to better quality tuners may make it easier to keep the guitar in tune.
I think the reported results were subjective and not objective.

I attended a seminar where the presenter asked a smoker why they smoked. They anwered that it relaxed them. So the presented put a heart rate monitor on the smoker and asked them to smoke a cigarette while sitting quietly so we call all see the results of the cigarette relaxing them. Their heart rate went UP because nicotine does NOT relax you because it is a stimulant. However, despite the actual physical evidence that smoking did NOT relax the smoker, the smoker still believes that it does because they WANT to believe that. Same this g with climate change deniers - they believe what it suits them to believe despite any and all evidence to the contrary.
 

Dolebludger

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If the change in tuners resulted in better string contact between tuners to guitar body, some tone improvement is actually possible. But it would be a small improvement. But tone improvement must be achieved in small steps. No changes will do it all at once.
 

ehb

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Same this g with climate change deniers - they believe what it suits them to believe despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

Any and all evidence to the contrary? :laugh2:

The 1300s were a bitch what with all the industrial smokestack shit messing up the atmosphere and ozone hole and shit...
 

Pageburst

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Same this g with climate change deniers - they believe what it suits them to believe despite any and all evidence to the contrary.
You can say the same about climate change hysterics, religious and political extremists, etc. People believe what they want. At least Grovers vs Klusons is harmles. It hasn’t resulted in $5 plus petrol runaway inflation, and widespread suffering that occurs when a family has to decide between putting dinner on the table or filling up their tank.
 

Blues_Verne

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Lots of people makes changes to guitars and then they hear what they WANT to hear. I just don't see how changing the tuners is going to affect the sustain or the tone. Changing from poor quality tuners to better quality tuners may make it easier to keep the guitar in tune.
I think the reported results were subjective and not objective.

I attended a seminar where the presenter asked a smoker why they smoked. They anwered that it relaxed them. So the presented put a heart rate monitor on the smoker and asked them to smoke a cigarette while sitting quietly so we call all see the results of the cigarette relaxing them. Their heart rate went UP because nicotine does NOT relax you because it is a stimulant. However, despite the actual physical evidence that smoking did NOT relax the smoker, the smoker still believes that it does because they WANT to believe that. Same this g with climate change deniers - they believe what it suits them to believe despite any and all evidence to the contrary.
This is great bs. You obviously belong to the category "...never tried that, but I know better!" Great dude knows to bend the law of physics. Your advancement in life is guaranteed, ha, ha. Watch your hearing abilities.
 

mjross

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This is great bs. You obviously belong to the category "...never tried that, but I know better!" Great dude knows to bend the law of physics. Your advancement in life is guaranteed, ha, ha. Watch your hearing abilities.
What?
 

Dolebludger

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I’ve said this before, and I’m sticking to it. Anything that makes the string connection to the guitar more secure, at any point, can improve tone.
 

efstop

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The more solid the connection to the body, the better the body vibrates by absorbing the vibrations.
The more the vibrations absorbed, the lower the energy of the vibrations of the strings to the pickups.
If low energy vibrations are what creates the tone, then the physics of tone has been solved.
NOTE: I am not a physicist.
 

Dolebludger

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efstop, I am not a physicist either. And at 78 1/2 years old, my hearing isn’t as good as it used to be. But I can still hear tonal degradation when TP, bridge, nut, and/or tuner pegs don;t secure the strings well to the body. Now at high volumes, none of this matters much. But at lower volumes, it does matter because you are relying more on the primary (un amped) tone of the guitar. At high volumes, a good amp can take care of many sins in the guitar itself. At lower volumes you need the string/body connections to be very secure. Just my opinion from having to play at lower volumes for decades.
 

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