Significant Tonal Improvement Changing Klusons for Grovers

Crusader

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If you mute the strings as you did, you’re not hearing anything through the pickups! Only the acoustic sound...
True but I'm not talking about sound going through to an amp, you can do what I suggested unplugged. The point is that vibrations go past the nut to the tuning pegs

When you mute the string between the nut and pegs, the vibrations are still there in the form of longitudinal pulses

Electric guitars are planks made of any material you use. It really doesn’t matter. Pickups and strings are what make the sound.
Have you ever heard of the experiment Torres did?
He made a guitar with back and sides of newspaper to prove the top was making the sound. Similar thing applies here.
I don't know what words to use to be polite but it does matter. People do all sorts of experiments but I find its best to base your conclusions on your own experiments. For example I recently made a guitar then compared it to my R9 through a Mesa Boogie and recorded it. The R9 clearly sounds better 'live' but listening to the recording I can barely tell any difference - (but to my surprise someone else noticed it)

Also, when I got the R9 the first thing I did was swap the nylon nut for bone and that made a lot of difference

If it really didn't matter what wood you use then no solid-body guitar maker would be using expensive timber
 

ehb

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Nawt. Ain’t gonna go all physics and rez systems and shit...


Let me just toss this maybe easier concept to visualize.

Suppose you have a room that is a perfect cube with all hard sides.
Suppose you have white noise being dumped in the room.
Visualize the sine waves bouncing from surface to surface.
Now turn on a radio and listen.

Suspend a hard sphere a couple feet in diameter from ceiling Dead center xyz.
Turn white noise back on. Visualize.
Kill noise, turn on radio remembering you ain’t touched a damn knob on the radio...
Add more spheres at different xyz points. Repeat with radio...

Think it out.


Now, consider you’ve just changed mass/density in a solid Rez system with a rez string system attached to it instead of a cavity Rez stem. Oh wait, there are cavities in a Lester too...

Just because it is a guitar, fire truck, or a sausage biscuit, does NOT give it the ability to defy physics...

A true story told edro style...
Once there was a brand new bomber.
Engines falling off to wings ripped off at certain narrow rpm range.
Red tape section put on all tachs.
Steel scrap mondo poundage welded to engine mounting frames.
Red tape removed.
Go blow up shit, bomber man...

Rez systems.
 

Wuuthrad

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Nawt. Ain’t gonna go all physics and rez systems and shit...


Let me just toss this maybe easier concept to visualize.

Suppose you have a room that is a perfect cube with all hard sides.
Suppose you have white noise being dumped in the room.
Visualize the sine waves bouncing from surface to surface.
Now turn on a radio and listen.

Suspend a hard sphere a couple feet in diameter from ceiling Dead center xyz.
Turn white noise back on. Visualize.
Kill noise, turn on radio remembering you ain’t touched a damn knob on the radio...
Add more spheres at different xyz points. Repeat with radio...

Think it out.


Now, consider you’ve just changed mass/density in a solid Rez system with a rez string system attached to it instead of a cavity Rez stem. Oh wait, there are cavities in a Lester too...

Just because it is a guitar, fire truck, or a sausage biscuit, does NOT give it the ability to defy physics...

A true story told edro style...
Once there was a brand new bomber.
Engines falling off to wings ripped off at certain narrow rpm range.
Red tape section put on all tachs.
Steel scrap mondo poundage welded to engine mounting frames.
Red tape removed.
Go blow up shit, bomber man...

Rez systems.
pure poetry right there, cheers!

I’m rather glad everyone has input their ideas here.
Often, I disagree to agree...

I have my own ideas, sprinkled with a bit of wingnut sauce I borrowed from an old hippy I once knew...”love one another” and all that. What a tragicomedy that nonsense turned out to be! Or did it?

Turn, turn, turn...
 
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ehb

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Constructive/deconstructive interference is some cool beans to savvy....


Kinda like AM...but different....
 

Wuuthrad

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If it really didn't matter what wood you use then no solid-body guitar maker would be using expensive timber
Interesting points indeed. Fwiw I don’t mind politeness. If you were being intentionally obtuse I probably wouldnt mind too much either! (Not to suggest that you were, and I should know as I often do that myself, much to my own detriment!) I generally take people’s word for whatever it’s worth. I do appreciate yours.

Regarding woods, I believe there is “cross talk” between styles of guitar manufacture, or some sort of thing. For example, when Martin begin making steel String Acoustics they were using the same woods that were used to make nylon string guitars. Going forward to the electric era, it would be natural to use the same woods.

And I really don’t think expense would necessarily make better sound. I have a seagull acoustic which is made of cheaper locally sourced Canadian cherry and cedar, which I’ve already mentioned. It sounds as good if not better than guitars priced 3 times more! It has aged well...

In terms of electric look at what Fender did: he made an industrial plant that used production line assembly with cheaper stuff. It was Henry Ford like, not Luthery per se. And we cannot doubt his influence, or the tone! (I believe there is a bit too much hype overall, and above 1000k an electric guitar is mostly bling, not tone!)

-edit- to say that the value of luthiers and craftsmanship involved is worth much more than that, no matter what woods are used.

In fact the lens of history tints our rosewood glasses, giving certain kinds of wood more value than others! Brazilian Rosewood for example, and there’s a lot to that re. tone. But again it’s mostly acoustic tone, and the value and use transferred over to the electric guitar in many ways course, as luthiers used what was available.

Much of this was driven by cost, as Lutherie was not a highly profitable business (18-1900’s) and through practical means they created an industry that became over the course of time one that values old world techniques and materials, which gives these woods much more value, at least in terms of hype, than they originally had.

I also think the focus should be on local woods and not recreation of past. At least going forward.

Interesting to note that the historical value of rosewood and its international trade comes from, if I remember correctly, was it the middle ages or at least the Renaissance? Because people idolized the red color of wood and associated it with priesthood, and thought it might bring them closer to God in essence!
 
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Wuuthrad

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Constructive/deconstructive interference is some cool beans to savvy....


Kinda like AM...but different....
Now you’ve gone and done it! I’m off to great Googley moogly again: this should be intersecting!
 
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Crusader

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Yes I agree that some timbers are favoured for other reasons but talking about fretboards, you should be able to notice the difference between a Maple-necked Strat and one with a Rosewood fingerboard

Getting back to the basics of this topic, as far as I understand. The strings vibrate and transfer to the wood and the vibrations of the wood in turn go back into the strings, dampening some harmonics and enhancing others, and it all gets picked up by the pickups. And whether you can hear a difference comes down to your hearing, which is not always 100% I know when I'm really tired my hearing is shot

I have made guitars out of 100% Jarrah, 100%Maple, Mahogany and combinations of Mahogany & Maple. It doesn't matter what pickups go in them they always have a distinctive sound. But how do you prove that its not all in your mind? If you hear a guitar that is made from 100% Maple you just know

But all this talk doesn't go anywhere and trying to prove points by A&B recordings etc. I don't think achieves anything. There is always the two factions and a person on one side will not be swayed to the other side. I think if there was no shortage of tone woods we wouldn't be having these type of debates. The world is running out of timber but I don't think that means you can't make good sounding guitars any more. If a guitar is well-made and has decent pickups it will sound good, there is too much cork-sniffing out there. Finding alternative woods or other materials is the way forward, as you said

Here's a couple of stories to note
One night I lent a Strat copy I made to a guy in a band and he was thrilled with it, but the sound tech guy asked him to ditch it because he couldn't eq it. This indicates that its not just pickups and strings

On the other hand...
My landlord plays drums in a band and one night I was chatting with the guitarist about his 335 copy and he said he paid $100 for it. After that all I could think was - here's me with a $9000 guitar but its sitting at home never being played in the limelight and here's this guy with his $100 job but he's out there playing gigs!

Anybody wanna buy a slightly used R9? LOL
 

ehb

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I believe that wood consistency in grain, density, and weight distribution trumps ‘genome’

Some woods typically can be more consistent than others, true.

That being said, ‘just because’ it is hog, maple, etc., does not guarantee much of anything carte blanche in my book.

With blanks of quality consistent wood, with similar rez characteristics, there is a good likelihood of a high quality build when all is said and done.

Over decades, I have unboxed and checked countless guitars, many identical models, and not a damn one sounded identical to the others...even with same everything including electronics....

From Lesters to Hamers (Joe days) to ‘Wayne C, to Grover’s to real Deans to etc. freaking etc... guitars and basses... All different in some way.

Three of the most ‘alive’ guitars I ran across were: a cheap kinda SG sorta slab Westbury (Uncle Mat?) , a slab P90 hog Lester, and a very early Pepto colored Hamer Chaparral... Fat AND spanky sounding. All three played through the same Marshall as others, no knob dicking on any test runs on new guitars. All three different from other like guitars... More than I thought wtf? playing and/or hearing those....

Basses too... Like models can range from OMG to wood chipper food and anywhere in between.

I may be right, nuts, or completely insane, but I am confident in what I have witnessed myself over the years. One of my Teles I bought used. Picked it up, heavy and dense, tapped on the neck back once and pulled out money to give the guy. Standard Tele and alive as hell... That guitar has surprised many players that have played it....especially unplugged...

Just my $.02...
 

Wuuthrad

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here ya go:
View attachment 494217

Jazzblaster's are pretty cool. Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo did a ton of cool stuff with 'em.
Cool man! Sonic Youth is one of my favorite indie bands. Was listening to them when they started! I had no idea about their specific guitar mods though, cheers!

When I listen to them nowadays it’s mostly the 80s stuff (never really got into the 90s stuff) I always wonder what a nice remix would sound like?

Saw this recently it’s pretty great:


-edit- I meant a proper remaster not remix. Those old records are pretty thin sounding to my ear.
 
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Billdawg38730

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So I installed some Grovers on my ol’ beater of a Les Paul and I have to say the tonal improvement with regard to response, sustain and note to note balance across the fretboard is not subtle. The guitar as a whole feels more alive and vibrant.

I know there is a simplistic view that added weight at the end of the headstock deadens the response but this is completely contrary to basic physics. Even acoustic guitar makers know that proper bracing is crucial to enhancing and tuning tonal response.

Prior to the Grovers, The guitar was tonally a bit “unfocused”. The lighter kluson tuners allowed the resonances to either cancel out or dissipate creating a somewhat muddled response plugged in despite the guitar being acoustically quite loud. The Grovers have not lessened the resonances as the guitar still rings out loudly acoustically. However that muddledness when plugged in is gone. Now the guitar has greater definition and punch with plenty of sweet overtones and harmonics that a great Les Paul is able to deliver.

I do think to Grover or not to Grover maybe guitar dependent. Some guitars have a compact and very strong fundamental tone that would be better served with klusons. But acoustically loud Les Pauls especially those that seem to have a tonal response that a little more prominent in the lower mids might very well benefit from them.





I also like the looks, has that old school rock n roll vibe




I have a standard with Grovers and A custom shop with klusons both are ok but that’s just me I only have 50 years experience Lol
 

brokentoeswalker

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What about the holes left by the previous tuners ?? Could they not be extra "tone" holes ?? Letting the wood breathe more and expanding the natural reasonance ?? Im pretty sure its the holes. If life has taught me anything its that its all about the holes.
 

Lester

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If it really didn't matter what wood you use then no solid-body guitar maker would be using expensive timber
I'll note that I believe the wood used definitely makes a difference in sound.

That said, manufacturers would still use upscale / more rare woods and charge more regardless. And people would be willing to pay 2 to 10x the standard cost regardless of the facts. Witness "monster cables". Just claim it's better and there are those who will convince themselves it is.
 

motowntom

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Wow!!!!........ Just Wow!......... Keith Richards- "I have a warehouse full of guitars... Give me 5 minutes and I can make them all sound the same"
Cheers
 

crosstownblues

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Everyone seems to say how much more xxxx the guitar has with different tuners, but has anyone recorded before and after with a blind test?
 


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