Significant Tonal Improvement Changing Klusons for Grovers

[northernguitarguy]

This is total Nonsense: Guitar strings don’t vibrate past the nut, the tuner makes no difference to the tone, only intonation- it’s all in your head!

This.

 

[MiniB]

I disagree, there's clearly a measurable difference physically/audibly....again listen to the video. How significant of a difference it makes to the player varies, depending on what they're after and the kind of response that particular player's style has with their guitar. This isn't to say that someone who doesn't take the time to compare the two is 'missing out' or the like...it may not matter to them, which is fine. Also not to say the the change will be for the better for everyone, either. I know that I would not have thought it made much difference until I tried it out myself.

To me it's always been less about 'tone' per se but more about response, on the pick attack and then bloom and sustain/decay, and what someone likes and dislikes about what they are getting. Many players notice differences in tailpiece/stud material and even thumbwheels. Certainly not outlandish that tuners of such different mass and construction should influence the final overall sound/response as well. I'll also reiterate that I think 50's wiring makes it more apparent since the greater clarity lets the differences come through more.

 

[Wuuthrad]

Well I will admit I notice significant changes with the various types of shoelaces tied on the end of my guitar strap:

Cotton- au natural and cool with the back to nature crowd

Nylon- far more technologically advanced, albeit of dubious origin

Waxed- the best EVAR! which provides a security blanket of sorts, unlike any other..


Also my strap buttons!

I prefer aged bone of goat head ...

-or-

Wrought Iron... Just cuz! \m/

 

[MiniB]

Have you compared the two tuners on the same guitar? Or zinc vs. aluminum tailpieces?

I also think you'll notice it more if you do a lot of clean or clean-ish playing, rather than immediately into a cranked Marshall or the like. I do a lot on the clean-ish side sort of teetering into overdrive, then often use a lead pedal, and those changes in timbre which may be subtle or almost unnoticeable for some make a difference....especially in pick attack and response.

And I don't mean Marshall cranked and guitar vol on 3 for clean, I mean more of a Fender Blackface amp turned up to 5.5-6.5, and guitar on 7 to 8. The former of which I could see harder to tell differences, so again a lot will probably depend on the individual player.

Will it make a significant difference in the context of a live band mix? Probably not, to be frank. Your guitar will still have its inherent tonal character with either tuners and a lot of the subtleties that we fixate on when listening alone probably won't even be noticeable at volume with other things/instruments going on, especially as you add a cranked amp/distortion into it. In that respect, yeah probably not much difference except maybe how well the guitar stays in tune.

 

[Kody]

I just swapped out my Gibson deluxe “klusons” with some grovers. I noticed a slight change in overall tone but for me the selling point is functionality of the tuners. I can really fine tune this thing now. And I like how solid they are being bolted to the headstock instead of hardly being secured with two little screws and a bushing. I didn’t realize how much wobble the heads had until I took them out. I went with the keystone heads to maintain some of the original look. My only gripe is that they look so new and shiny and it doesn’t match the rest of my hardware which is aged. Overall worth the 54 bucks.

 

[Brek]

I think what might have got some wound up over this is the use of the word ‘tone’ in the title. I put some slightly heavier locking kluson revolutions on two of mine, all I have noticed is the resonant point changed from G to A. Main benefit as above is being able to lock tuning to absolute values quickly not hunting up and down.

 

[MiniB]

They are undoubtedly smoother and more precise feeling tuners.

 

[Crusader]

I can see in the dark when other people say its pitch-black, and your ears are the same. Some people hear things that other people don't

 

[northernguitarguy]

Some people hear things that other people don't

Psychoacoustics

 

[Crusader]

This is total Nonsense: Guitar strings don’t vibrate past the nut, the tuner makes no difference to the tone, only intonation- it’s all in your head!

To say that strings don't vibrate past the nut is easily proven wrong. If you strum the strings then mute them quickly you can hear the ring-on from the length of strings from the nut to the pegs. The pegs transmit vibration to the wood and that in turn goes back into the string

On a guitar everything vibrates and contributes to the resulting sound

 

[ehb]

Just caught up kinda sorta...

The brass plate mentioned was an Aspen Fathead plate. Pull gears drop the plate on, put gears back on.

Concept was adding mass. I Do think it could alter something as the guitar is a system and any alteration would have some potential effect. Whether noticeable or measurable, probable case by case.

Anchor points in the resonant string system are saddles and nut OR engaged fret if string not played open... Outside of that is secondary as such...

I thought they looked cool, undecided on efficacy, and should have stockpiled em, the prices they are going for... Would have liked to order some for the shop and loaded one of my Lesters and one of my Skrats that I am most familiar with their tone color...just to see... Did that with my PrimeVibe and I was hella critic and bought one to prove to myself it was hot air. Nawt.

Still think Fatheads looked cool on the back of headstocks... Lesters, Skrats, I think Teles and J & P basses too... May call in a favor one day with an old classmate engineer bud W/ access to big tech toys for kicks...

 

[LtDave32]

My .02 ..

The difference would be so small, so barely perceptible, you couldn't tell if it were a good difference or a bad difference.

I'll go ahead and go on record that no player who ever made any money in the studio really ever gave a damn about such a difference. There are so many other things to pay attention to.

 

[Freddy G]

This is total Nonsense: Guitar strings don’t vibrate past the nut, the tuner makes no difference to the tone, only intonation- it’s all in your head!

Ah....but the whole neck vibrates. As EHB said....a guitar is a system. You have to look at the way the whole thing reacts. Simply witness a snark tuner clipped to a headstock.
FWIW...I had Grovers on my personal LP and switched over to Klusons. I liked the tone better with the Klusons...it was just a little less polite and refined sounding.

 

[Wuuthrad]

Yes of course things vibrate, but unless you have microphonic pickups I don’t think anything other than strings are being heard.

Let me ask you this: did you change strings after replacing the tuners or keep the old ones on? That may have change the sound.

And what if I were to put a c clamp on the end of a Steinberger? I’m sure it would sound different, if only because I was holding the guitar differently and playing differently.

I still believe the acoustic sound of an electric guitar is not heard through the pickups, and since these differences are primarily acoustic, they make no discernible difference to the amplified sound.

Prove me wrong?

 

[Freddy G]

Yes of course things vibrate, but unless you have microphonic pickups I don’t think anything other than strings are being heard.

Let me ask you this: did you change strings after replacing the tuners or keep the old ones on? That may have change the sound.

And what if I were to put a c clamp on the end of a Steinberger? I’m sure it would sound different, if only because I was holding the guitar differently and playing differently.

I still believe the acoustic sound of an electric guitar is not heard through the pickups, and since these differences are primarily acoustic, they make no discernible difference to the amplified sound.

Prove me wrong?

Are you a luthier?

 

[Wuuthrad]

To say that strings don't vibrate past the nut is easily proven wrong. If you strum the strings then mute them quickly you can hear the ring-on from the length of strings from the nut to the pegs. The pegs transmit vibration to the wood and that in turn goes back into the string

On a guitar everything vibrates and contributes to the resulting sound

On the contrary!

Play a chord and mute the strings behind the nut- no change in sound whatsoever.

If you mute the strings as you did, you’re not hearing anything through the pickups! Only the acoustic sound...


Electric guitars are planks made of any material you use. It really doesn’t matter. Pickups and strings are what make the sound.

Have you ever heard of the experiment Torres did?
He made a guitar with back and sides of newspaper to prove the top was making the sound. Similar thing applies here.

 

[Wuuthrad]

Are you a luthier?

With all due respect, if you answer my questions with a question, I’m going to lose interest in the conversation really fast!

Normally I wouldn’t respond at all. But I do value and respect your opinion! It is an interesting topic after all...

Where is the evidence?

 

[Freddy G]

I ask, only because you make many claims of fact while dismissing any other possibilities because it seems logical to you. There is so much more going on than just "strings and pickups" I don't even know where to begin.

OK...just an example. Do you think there would be any difference in sound between a neck that was carved very thin so that it had a lot of compliance compared to a neck that was really stiff? The answer is yes....there certainly is especially when you get to extremes if you want to prove the point.

 

[Wuuthrad]

Hold on a minute. You guys are pulling me leg!

Wasn’t this in Spinal Tap Cutting Room Floor Outtakes ver. III?

N. Tufnel:

“Stop the show there’s somethang pulling my G-Strang!”

-overheard from the front row- “that’s just me Nigel baby”

N.:
“Hold on Need a quick change to my Titanium Gold Plated Carbine Fiber Choonaz with Xxxtra strength nut sauce before I wank this next Solo!”

-crowd goes wild with wannabe groupie shouts of “no over here Nige pull my g-string!” “ I got sum nut sauce for you!” and “wank me Solo Nigel, pleeeze!”

lol....

But hey don’t get me wrong I’m not trying to argue: no matter what- whatever sounds good to your ears!

I will summarily conclude this post with my knowledge based on many years of playing experience:

Tuning pegs, or Friction pegs, sound better than mechanical geared pegs. But of course that’s a whole different ball game, classical guitars and all...

Wood vibrating wood really does sound (and feel) good! Acoustically.

And unless you’re playing classical orchestral music, most people don’t want to learn how to use friction pegs. Forget about electric! Ain’t going to happen (too much tension) I lol at the detail
many people pay to tuners. The Bling game is big, even in classical guitars!

Its like gold teeth and rims...

But for practical reasons, people don’t want friction pegs even though they convey a slightly different sound, which to many isn’t even noticeable.

Acoustic sound isn’t transmitted through pickups though! You need a mic or a transducer. If you want to mic your headstock than maybe we can do a comparison.

That being said, if it is so crucial to the tonez, why hasn’t anyone mounted a pickup to the headstock?

 

[Wuuthrad]

I ask, only because you make many claims of fact while dismissing any other possibilities because it seems logical to you. There is so much more going on than just "strings and pickups" I don't even know where to begin.

OK...just an example. Do you think there would be any difference in sound between a neck that was carved very thin so that it had a lot of compliance compared to a neck that was really stiff? The answer is yes....there certainly is especially when you get to extremes if you want to prove the point.

I suppose there is: but I can’t say for certain if an Ibanez Wizard neck would sound different if it was thicker. Never been able to swap one around, I just played as is. Probably wouldn’t want to change necks or tuners on any guitar unless one was broken.

If I want a different tone or more sustain I turn a few knobs on guitar amp or pedal. I think tuners are function over form, some people think the other way around, and some people go all the way overboard!

I suppose it’s easy to say a 50s LP neck is sounding different than a 60’s but then we’re almost chasing shadows, “sum of all parts” and everything. And isn’t playability the most important thing?

I know SGs are slightly less neck heavy with old bean tuners, which affects playability, which affects sound.

Has anyone sawed off an LP headstock and replaced it with a Steinberger tuning system? (And lived to tell the tale?) That might be a good experiment.

I just banged on my acoustic guitar in open G.

Placing my finger on the strings behind the nut caused no change to the sound. Squeezing the headstock did nothing. Nor does putting a digital tuner on it.

If I swapped the tuners out I’d feel like a knumbskull to be honest with you! Why desecrate a work of Art?
I mean it’s not an OG gold top but it is my 1st gen Cherry/Cedar Seagull Dread and it sounds gorgeous! Nice Broad that one- You can take her anywhere and play the crap out of her...

Ultimately I suspect that most guys change strings after doing a tuner swap and that’s what gives a new sound.

Ultimately, the difference is hardly noticeable if there even is one.