Significant Tonal Improvement Changing Klusons for Grovers

[Pageburst]

So I installed some Grovers on my ol’ beater of a Les Paul and I have to say the tonal improvement with regard to response, sustain and note to note balance across the fretboard is not subtle. The guitar as a whole feels more alive and vibrant.

I know there is a simplistic view that added weight at the end of the headstock deadens the response but this is completely contrary to basic physics. Even acoustic guitar makers know that proper bracing is crucial to enhancing and tuning tonal response.

Prior to the Grovers, The guitar was tonally a bit “unfocused”. The lighter kluson tuners allowed the resonances to either cancel out or dissipate creating a somewhat muddled response plugged in despite the guitar being acoustically quite loud. The Grovers have not lessened the resonances as the guitar still rings out loudly acoustically. However that muddledness when plugged in is gone. Now the guitar has greater definition and punch with plenty of sweet overtones and harmonics that a great Les Paul is able to deliver.

I do think to Grover or not to Grover maybe guitar dependent. Some guitars have a compact and very strong fundamental tone that would be better served with klusons. But acoustically loud Les Pauls especially those that seem to have a tonal response that a little more prominent in the lower mids might very well benefit from them.

I also like the looks, has that old school rock n roll vibe

 

[morbidalex666]

On my Corsa Manalishi, I went from Grovers to locking Tonepros, to Klusons and back to the original Grovers.
That was the voice of the guitar originally (for me) and it went away with the different tuners.

From then on I would put Grovers in a guitar when aiming for girth and sustain. Klusons when aiming for softer, more light vintage-y tones. Same with tailpiece material.

All is subjective though.

Cheers!

BTW I love the rig in the third pic!

 

[AJK1]

Is this a joke ?

 

[Blues_Verne]

No joke! Throughout some 50 odd years of servicing and modding and setting up guitars and basses I can report that it more or less it strongly depends on the shape and girth of the necks. Especially the slim variety definately profits from some more weight on the headstock.
Whereas I once replaced a whole metal tuners set on a 12-string acoustic with Schaller black nylons and ...halleluja what a sunrise. My maim stage acoustic since years.

Those staggered tuners were a special order, courtesy of Schaller, Germany. ...i just wanted to know whats happening, like I use to say: the proof of the pudding...

 

[SWeAT hOg]

#psychoacoustics

 

[AJK1]

No joke! Throughout some 50 odd years of servicing and modding and setting up guitars and basses I can report that it more or less it strongly depends on the shape and girth of the necks. Especially the slim variety definately profits from some more weight on the headstock.
Whereas I once replaced a whole metal tuners set on a 12-string acoustic with Schaller black nylons and ...halleluja what a sunrise. My maim stage acoustic since years.

Those staggered tuners were a special order, courtesy of Schaller, Germany. ...i just wanted to know whats happening, like I use to say: the proof of the pudding... View attachment 406369 View attachment 406370

Is English your second language because I don’t understand some of your spelling and grammar, so parts of your post don’t make sense ?

 

[Blues_Verne]

Ahh well, German born, lived in Australia couple of years. Actually have a problem with me eyes (right eye getting blind), so sometimes miss the righr key. Sorry.

 

[Moni]

It's funny you mention this because I had replaced my tuners on a 2006 Les Paul Cklassic that came with Schaller Rotomatic style tuners that someone had put on it. The tone difference after putting the Gibson Tuners that are Kluson modern style affected the tone as such I had to put the Schallers back on. Well not terrible but there was a very noticable difference in tone I agree.

I put the Schallers back on and left it alone.

One change that did make a huge difference for the better was replacing the bridge and stop bar with a Historic ABR bridge and aluminum stop bar. Night and day fantastic tone and sustain, very noticable also.

I'm sure someone will say it is psychotic in your head nonsense, whatever. Those guys are an annoyance, tell that to people like Eric Johnson who care about these things because it's FACT that tone changes depending on what you use for parts.

I don't see many people ok with with putting a Korean zinc metal bridge on their Les Pauls since it doesn't matter and all that.

 

[Airplane]

Ahh well, German born, lived in Australia couple of years. Actually have a problem with me eyes (right eye getting blind), so sometimes miss the righr key. Sorry.

Don’t be sorry. Grammar Nazis should be sorry for being, well... You know, just grammar nazis.

 

[SWeAT hOg]

Don’t be sorry. Grammar Nazis should be sorry for being, well... You know, just grammar nazis.

You can always calm a grammar nazi by softy saying ‘there, their, they’re’.

 

[moreles]

The Klusons with press-in bushings are a deficient design and don't couple with the headstock and neck the way screw-down bushings, found in Rotomatics, do. I'd rather have more vibration than less, and I don't like having strong energy dissipated by poorly coupled and junky machines. Further, though the difference is diminishing, Klusons tend to be crappy -- slippy and loose -- while Rotomatics are solid and firm (their shape also complements the LP contours, while Klusons are some art deco weirdness.

 

[ARandall]

^ Lets not get too close to the false dichotomy logical fallacy.

Great tones are possible with both, and the Klusons are not even close to being as poorly constructed as you are trying to intimate.
If you closely at the way the grovers attach, the amount of torque you can apply is incredibly minimal.....otherwise you have issue with the finish being damaged on the headstock veneer.

However Grovers certainly are a smooth joy to turn, irrespective of any other argument. I'm happy to buy them or Klusons......I've never had slippage nor tuning issue on either that a nut massage didn't sort out

 

[Moni]

^ Lets not get too close to the false dichotomy logical fallacy.

Great tones are possible with both, and the Klusons are not even close to being as poorly constructed as you are trying to intimate.
If you closely at the way the grovers attach, the amount of torque you can apply is incredibly minimal.....otherwise you have issue with the finish being damaged on the headstock veneer.

However Grovers certainly are a smooth joy to turn, irrespective of any other argument. I'm happy to buy them or Klusons......I've never had slippage nor tuning issue on either that a nut massage didn't sort out

Kluson styled are great tuners. I was just surprised when I put the Gibson Kluson modern style for the 10mm peg hole that the sound changed as dramatically as it did. I wasn’t looking for a sound change to begin with and expected no difference but noticed it immediately.

It certainly wasn’t #PsychoAcoustics - wasn’t even thinking about anything like that when it happened.

There was a difference .... for whatever reason on this 2006 Les Paul Classic guitar.

I’ve changed tuners on other guitars and didn’t notice anything like that on two SG guitars that I sWapped tuners out of.

 

[frozenotter]

I've noticed a major tonal difference with paint rubbed off the "n" on my Standard's truss cover. So much brighter and filled out now.

 

[SWeAT hOg]

I've noticed a major tonal difference with paint rubbed off the "n" on my Standard's truss cover. So much brighter and filled out now.

Must come through best when you’ve added gobs of distortion and modulation.

 

[MooCheng]

its most likely to do with the mass of the tuners,
I remember back in the day there was a short lived craze adding mass by screwing metal plates to the back of headstocks, Some say it made a difference, never tried it so don't know, but the thinking behind it makes sense

 

[Duane_the_tub]

I've never had slippage nor tuning issue on either that a nut massage didn't sort out

 

[kakao]

I take this as a joke .. so you say the new tuners changed the tone ,,, of your LP?!

That's a good one.

 

[Scott A Novak]

Ahh well, German born, lived in Australia couple of years. Actually have a problem with me eyes (right eye getting blind), so sometimes miss the righr key. Sorry.

I had no difficulty understanding what you meant.

The Klusons with press-in bushings are a deficient design and don't couple with the headstock and neck the way screw-down bushings, found in Rotomatics, do. I'd rather have more vibration than less, and I don't like having strong energy dissipated by poorly coupled and junky machines. Further, though the difference is diminishing, Klusons tend to be crappy -- slippy and loose -- while Rotomatics are solid and firm (their shape also complements the LP contours, while Klusons are some art deco weirdness.

I'd agree that your explanation is probably close to reality. It makes logical sense to me. But whether it be mass loading, or better coupling to the headstock, whatever the reason, the Grovers Rotomatics are just a better made tuner than the cheaper Klusons. I've had problems tuning with Klusons, but never Grover Rotomatics. The money for the Grovers was money well spent.

I may just take the plunge and replace the Rotomatics with locking tuners.

Scott Novak

 

[Dougie]

It is NO secret that changing mass changes tonal voicing. Adding mass usually adds bottom end, but it can shift the whole tonality of the instrument so that playing up on the end of the fingerboard (like you would have to do with a single p.u. guitar to get the neck p.u. sound out of it) deepens the tone and enhances the effect.

How do you think Keef gets his rhythm tone with the double cut LP Jr he uses? That guitar has less body mass because it's smaller, and the neck is beefy so overall tone more or less follows your picking hand position on the neck. It's an interesting phenomena but very very valid.

I put full sized Fender style tuners on my Thunderbird IV bass, having coped out each tuner with a dremel tool to allow closer post to post spacing so they would fit on the reissue Thunderbird peghead and OMG the difference! It has TONS more bottom now with the much heavier tuners. The added weight also came with a price, it's much easier to break the peghead now since the neck is so skinny behind the nut, so it's been broken and repaired a total of 4 times. And, as expected, filling in the pores in the woodgrain in that area allows for much better transfer of sustain and resonance from the peghead to the rest of the guitar. After 4 repairs, the whole instrument actually sounds better than it did when it was new.

ALL of this is physics really, but it's a fun science!