~Sigil Pickups~ Holy Grail LTD 1958/1959 Vintage Wire P.A.F.

CheopisIV

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Thanks! There really is something to the old wire, definitely one of the key ingredients in the P.A.F. formula.

A note to all who placed orders, everything will be shipped today if you didn't get a tracking number yesterday.

A note to those thinking about placing orders; I underestimated how fast these would move so am getting low on boxes. I'll be cutting more ASAP and let you know time estimates as orders are placed!
 
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CheopisIV

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Damn, those sounded great! Good job Dave!

Thanks! I couldn't be happier with how Doug showcased the different sets and positions.

It's been some time since I tried recording anything myself but last efforts were very poor quality sound. That's just a skillset I don't have right now. I've seen recordings done with a smart phone that were better than my efforts!!
 

CheopisIV

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This clip goes direct to the Audio portion of the 1959 and 1958 sets. Be sure to watch the full show on the Doug & Pat Show channel!

 
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CheopisIV

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Sets moving out, getting lots of great feedback! Here's a few bits:

"Finally got the Holy Grails's in my guitar last night. Wow! Fantastic. Very good. They are very very similar to my real P.A.F.s. Ghost notes etc. Well done sir. The have that "airy/hollow" feel I have been looking for."

Well yeah they are something else!!
They screamed at me right from the first chord!
They are so many things at the same time.
Biting but subtle, hollow but full, low output but with tons of sustain, bright but sweet. Absolutely incredible clarity to the individual notes of the chords. I can't say enough about them.
The 58 neck is hands down the BEST neck pickup I have ever tried. After I spend enough time with them, I might say the same thing about the bridge model as well.
 
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CheopisIV

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Here's a clip from the wild; 1958 Holy Grail pickups in a guitar made of 300 year old wood. artist: Karl Valentine
 
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bp-plickner

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Sets moving out, getting lots of great feedback! Here's a few bits:
What these guys said. The level of detail and articulation coming from the 58 set I put my R0 is amazing! Great mid position tones. I am reminded of when I started playing guitar all of those years ago and I could get lost in a chord.
Time travel.
 

Guitar Rod

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Great sounding pickups, and that guitar in the last vid is a pretty cool takeoff of an Explorer and Flying V.
 

CheopisIV

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Another vid by Karl Valentine featuring the 58's. Seems he put a little hot sauce on them :)

 

CheopisIV

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As of this pint, I have 3 sets of 59s and 7 sets of 58s left for grabs!

3 people are using the 'No Hassle' payment plan; anyone interested can get in touch by PM or email.
 

CheopisIV

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As of this pint....

Hehehe....typo... but not far from the truth ;)

Anyway, I managed to snap the bit while cutting a box; first for me and surprising to say the least, but inevitable I 'spose. I attached the laser and burned out the logos on the one's I completed. Then I wanted to make something cool for my 4 year old who loves trains and tractors and all kinds of heavy machinery. So here's that! ~3 hours of burning but man, it looks pretty cool and the little guy loves it!


18422985_10154689419919053_6673536110680679197_o.jpg
 

CheopisIV

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Down to the last set of 59's and a handful of 58's. I've added the single hybrid set to the store as well. The hybrid set was wound with the last usable wire from the spools and have 58 Slug coils and 59 Screw coils. It's in Zebra and will come with all the same goodies as the other sets.

I also have 3 people currently doing the payment plan so it's not such a hit on the pocketbook; send an email through the website or PM here for details on that option.

Thanks to all who have participated, bought sets, did demos, and even just said hello :)
 
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DarrellV

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Thanks! There really is something to the old wire, definitely one of the key ingredients in the PAF formula.

So I was wondering why that might be aside from the old and mojo angle.

Insulation had been covered, enamel vs poly, so what does that leave us with?

My mind went for something molecular, in the copper ore itself (density, purity, oxide content etc., so the refining process seemed to be a good place to start looking.

Did anything change around or after the 50's in the way copper itself was made.. wire being just a minor part of the process after all. It is copper first, and then gets designated to become whatever finished product it becomes.

So I found this little article that I thought might be of interest, or not, but I figured I'd put it out there as a possible reason as to why old wire should make a physically noticeable (sonic) difference that is not easily replicated anymore.

My theory is because at the molecular level, it's not the same copper it used to be.

"The old traditional process is based on roasting,smelting in reverbatory furnaces or electric furnaces for more complex ores, producing matte and converting for production of blister copper which is further refined to cathode copper.

This route for production of cathode copper requires large amounts of energy per ton of copper (30-40 million Btu per ton cathode copper).

So called flash smelting techniques have therefore been developed which utilize the energy released during oxidation of the sulfur in the ore.

The flash techniques reduce the energy demand to about 20 million Btu/ton of produced cathode copper.

Flash processes have been in use since the 1950s."
 
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CheopisIV

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Mojo and legend be damned, results are what matters and you nailed it in the first try.

The copper itself was impure and inconsistent by modern standards which makes for a less than perfect coil. I don't mean imperfect as in flawed, but much less predictable. Out of the same spool I had bobbins ranging from ~mid 3k to mid 4k with everything else being consistent. My modern wire equivalent Plain Enamel is much more regulated and predictable and a single bobbin will fluctuate maybe 0.2 - 0.4 with all else being equal.

I haven't sent any wire off to be analyzed at the molecular level and never will... I use what I use be it modern, vintage or anywhere in between. Other's have done the scientific breakdown and keep the results to themselves (understandably) but the common info they let out is that the wire was not a very controlled or precisely created product.
 

DarrellV

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As a followup from good ol' Wikipedia there may be something to this... or not.. I'm no expert YMMV.

Emphasis is mine...

"Roasting and reverberatory furnace smelting dominated primary copper production until the 1960s.

Roasting

The roasting process is generally undertaken in combination with reverberatory furnaces. In the roaster, the copper concentrate is partially oxidised to produce "calcine" and sulfur dioxide gas.

Roasting generally leaves more sulfur in the calcined product (15% in the case of the roaster at Mount Isa Mines) than a sinter plant leaves in the sintered product.

As of 2005, roasting is no longer common in copper concentrate treatment, because its combination with reverberatory furnaces is not energy efficient and the SO2 concentration in the roaster off gas is too dilute for cost-effective capture.

Direct smelting is now favored, e.g. using the following smelting technologies: flash smelting, Isasmelt, Noranda, Mitsubishi or El Teniente furnaces.
 

DarrellV

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The copper itself was impure and inconsistent by modern standards which makes for a less than perfect coil. I don't mean imperfect as in flawed, but much less predictable. Out of the same spool I had bobbins ranging from ~mid 3k to mid 4k with everything else being consistent. My modern wire equivalent Plain Enamel is much more regulated and predictable and a single bobbin will fluctuate maybe 0.2 - 0.4 with all else being equal.

Exactly what I was thinking! Thanks for humoring me!:cheers:

But I'd be willing to bet that the differing resistance values could be traced back to 'holes' caused by the impurities in the copper lattice between atoms in the wire strand.

These impurities would interfere with the smooth transfer of electric current (electrons) from one atomic shell to another, much like boulders on a highway impedes the flow of traffic.

To paint a better picture we can take a DCR of say 4K.

It would take X amount of turns of the old wire to reach that value with it's included imperfections and resulting losses.

Would it then make sense that it should take many more turns of modern, purer copper wire to get to the same DCR value.

Obviously this would change the toanez.....Rinse, repeat, chase....

Makes me wish I had the money for a set. Sounds like they are going to become a unique piece of history.

Way cool laser cutter too!:thumb:

And, well, duh! :facepalm: Great looking pickups too!
 
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CheopisIV

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Interesting reads! I was looking into home foundry stuff ~7 years back and plan to revisit the idea when the kids are a bit older; I won't be roasting my own copper wire but I find this stuff incredibly interesting. Plan is to start on simple aluminum and eventually move up to steel. My brother in law has been messing around with the burner creation (waste oil burner) but the best we've hit with basic tests is ~1800 C. A more controlled environment would likely see a significant boost there! Might even make my own magnets if I can source some Cobalt ;)

In pickup news, the mixed 58/59 set has been claimed and has been removed from my website. Another one on the Payment Plan.
 

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