Shame on you Gibson. Shame.

jenton70

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I find my LP bright enough now and personally wouldn't want any more highs that would come from (consistently) >500K pots. I also find for my needs the adjustment is fine as do others but to each their own.
The customers of the replacement product are all very happy so you cant argue it's not good/great service being offered.
My only issue with this thread is calling the standard pots and electronics crap. Total bull**** frankly. If the parts are within specification (and I'll bet there were) then they were fine. Think about the bitching that goes on about this stuff from people on this forum who are basically weekend warriors! Plenty of professionals can & have worked with what they get off the shelf and it's a person's guitar and money to do with as they will but before a person starts calling stuff out they should look in a mirror. Some of us are taking ourselves far too seriously.
Sorry rant over.
Can't speak for anyone else, Ken, but I certainly never said anything was crap. I only said that for TOP dollar guitars, one should expect TOP components. I played semi-pro regionally for many years with some pretty inexpensive gear. No issues. In fact, I rarely replaced parts on those workhorse guitars. But now I'm just some bedroom bozo who spends way too much time and energy thinking about and trying to enjoy guitar tone. Hence, I spend money in an eternal chase. For 5 grand I think it's reasonable to expect to not feel the need to replace parts on the guitar. That's not to say it sounded "bad" at all with the original parts. It didn't. In fact, it sounded very good! But now, to my ears, it sounds even better.

I think this thread has spiraled out of control. I meant it to be a slightly tongue-in-cheek scolding of Gibson for what I perceive to be a financial corner-cutting on their custom shop axes. I did not intend to insult anyone's perception of good tone, or to stir up a veritable hornet's nest of animosity regarding aftermarket parts providers. :shock:
 

Crotch

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I also think the term "bright" is being overstated. It's not the brightness I'm after, in fact the pickups I like most are underwound and milky. To be it's more about having an actual degree of volume and tone in between the 10 and the 1. In the many Gibson guitars I've owned it seems like you have no control with stock. The difference in being able to tap a dial and hear a clear difference is what I like about it. I went years without changing any stock parts until recently. Also agree with jenton70. The thread seemed more about paying a premium for non premium. Look at the true historic lineup. So plastics are more important than electronic components? Not to me. But I play that looks roll as well so I don't fault anyone there. Not a burst chaser, I don't think, but I have a Shanks, I love it, and want it to represent the original as much as possible. Isn't/wasn't that the point of the CC line? Well they failed in my eyes. Aged guitar with shiny new plastics and bright shiny tuners? Cmon. Back to the point, it's about Gibson using the best they can, and they usually fall short of that for the price they charge.
 

freebyrd 69

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I also think the term "bright" is being overstated. It's not the brightness I'm after, in fact the pickups I like most are underwound and milky. To be it's more about having an actual degree of volume and tone in between the 10 and the 1. In the many Gibson guitars I've owned it seems like you have no control with stock. The difference in being able to tap a dial and hear a clear difference is what I like about it. I went years without changing any stock parts until recently. Also agree with jenton70. The thread seemed more about paying a premium for non premium. Look at the true historic lineup. So plastics are more important than electronic components? Not to me. But I play that looks roll as well so I don't fault anyone there. Not a burst chaser, I don't think, but I have a Shanks, I love it, and want it to represent the original as much as possible. Isn't/wasn't that the point of the CC line? Well they failed in my eyes. Aged guitar with shiny new plastics and bright shiny tuners? Cmon. Back to the point, it's about Gibson using the best they can, and they usually fall short of that for the price they charge.
Agreed. For me, its 95% about tone and volume control......and they are worth it.
 

Bobby Mahogany

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As for harnesses, why would I spend time and fuel to try and find pots with the right mechanics and specs,
shop for caps that would suit my needs for blues and "classic" rock (read Led Zeppelin!:D) ,
shop for wire with the right specs (what's that figure again? 20 gauge? Some other gauge, shoot!
I have to comb through threads to get that number again!), get the right composition soldering stuff,
heat my soldering iron to the right temperature, heat the part "just right" as I wouldn't want to damage it
or the wire that's going on it, leave it on the right amount of time for the same reasons, not let too much solder on it,
not burn myself, repeat for each and every part and hope for the best (?),
while I could order a pre-wired harness form a reputable MLP vendor (right parts soldered at the right temperature with the right stuff)
for not much more money...
:hmm:
 

LpCustom2007

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I find my LP bright enough now and personally wouldn't want any more highs that would come from (consistently) >500K pots. I also find for my needs the adjustment is fine as do others but to each their own.
The customers of the replacement product are all very happy so you cant argue it's not good/great service being offered.
My only issue with this thread is calling the standard pots and electronics crap. Total bull**** frankly. If the parts are within specification (and I'll bet there were) then they were fine. Think about the bitching that goes on about this stuff from people on this forum who are basically weekend warriors! Plenty of professionals can & have worked with what they get off the shelf and it's a person's guitar and money to do with as they will but before a person starts calling stuff out they should look in a mirror. Some of us are taking ourselves far too seriously.
Sorry rant over.
This was exactly my point as well, but people obviously only read what they wanted to read, and/or took things out of context. What bothers me is that stock harness is crap and xxx product is heavenly. Alot of people even almost proudly state they don´t even try the stock pots before switching them out.. It´s like there´s a contest of buying the most expensive or hyped aftermarket parts, and bragging about it online to get some guitar forum cred? Ha ha.

Anyway, for the last time I will state exactly what I mean. For everyone that enjoys the products they buy, more power to them. You can buy harnesses, plastic, turds or canned air as far as I´m concerned, your money, your choice. But I´m also allowed to think it´s bull**** or hype. Not all of it, but some of it.

As for the price quotations, I didn´t even bring that up, someone else did. What´s funny is that several people accuse me of not knowing **** about what things cost, but noone will confirm, deny, or even comment the first posters price quotes.

Just to make it clear, as far as I´m concerned, a vendor, or any business, can charge prices with a 1000% profit margin on anything they sell, if they want. I don´t care, I can choose to buy or not to buy.

What led to my comment about the price was that the quoted prices are obviously wrong, and only because I know that no business can be run that way.

Since some people obviously got very offended by this, feel free to inform me how wrong I am, instead of just suggesting that I don´t know **** about anything. Public or by PM. I have no problems at all being proved wrong, and will be happy to apologize if that would be needed.

As for the 5 bucks a pot comparison, please read my post. I wasn´t comparing apples and oranges (or mojotone CTS 500 to bla bla bla whatever), what I did say was that if that vendor charged me 5 bucks a piece for them, that means HE payed less than that. That´s how you usually run a business. The analogy was that if Jonesy sells pots for 11 bucks each, he don´t pay 10 bucks each for the same pot. He definitely need a bigger margin in order to keep business afloat.

Read what I´m writing without taking things out of context. Please.
 

LpCustom2007

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The MojoTone pots and the WD CTS550K pots have entirely different price structures. Not that you would know that...
Do you have a reading disability Sir? This is not an insult, I know for a fact that alot of people do, so it´s a 100% honest question.

If that is the fact, I will explain again. My analogy had nothing to do with comparing Mojotone and WD pots, it was about price in, price out. Any business charge more out than they pay in, that´s what makes it a business you know. It´s funny that I need to explain this to someone who runs a business. I have never ever said anything about prices anyone charge for their product, only that the example given was wrong, that the vendor in fact has a much bigger profit margin than the poster was trying to impose. Which is perfectly fine by me!!

It´s funny that Gibson prices, or even smaller businesses prices can be discussed in absurdum, but if it´s a vendor, then it´s sacred? Stand up for your product god damn it!!
 

trapland

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Not everyone wants more treble/brighter guitar. I change the volume pot to 300k so i can pay loud onstage with a lot of distortion without scaring of the bats and slicing the eardrums off my audience. I guess that means i closed down my guitar?
...There is such a thing as "too bright". Sometimes the people on this forum just ...argh...there are more than one truth. ..not everyone play their guitar through the same amp as you. Not everyone wants the same sound. Some pickups suck with 470k pots but shine with 300k. others are the other way around. ..there is no general rule that 500k pots always sounds better. People like different things. .
there, i said it. ..you can ban me now. . :)
J
How can a guitar be too bright? :). You are banned! That's WHY there is a tone control, so you can get a darker sound, but STILL have a bright sound of you need it. Les Paul tone controls only reduce treble, they don't add treble to an already dark guitar.

I find most current historics with the tone on about 6 sound similar to a Guitar with 300kohm pots. And you can go up or down in brightness from there. Or you can just use 300k pots if you want dark tone while SEEING a 10 on the knob. It's your guitar, but I think being unable to have bright tone appeals to less people. just my thoughts....

In a separate note, if I couldn't solder well, or knew nothing about how component values affect tone, I would ABSOLUTELY consult a reputable harness builder to explore the tone I was looking for. Getting lucky enough to find that one local guy who give enough of a crap about tone to find the right parts is rediculous. I now jack about the vendors here, but I gather they do custom value builds to reach their customers tower and value needs. Dark, bright, smooth taper, on/off taper.... Everyone has their own taste.

I prefer the hunt and to build my own. It's part of the fun....many stores are used to me showing up with my multi meter and measuring their pots. Last time I bought 12 pots. I think most Gibsons built from 1990-2010 at least benefit in taper usability, and those of us that like brighter increased output seek the higher value pots. If any of that doesn't make sense or measuring parts atmyourmlocal guitar shop seems unappealing, then buying a custom make harness is for you.
 

MATTM

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Do you have a reading disability Sir? This is not an insult, I know for a fact that alot of people do, so it´s a 100% honest question.

If that is the fact, I will explain again. My analogy had nothing to do with comparing Mojotone and WD pots, it was about price in, price out. Any business charge more out than they pay in, that´s what makes it a business you know. It´s funny that I need to explain this to someone who runs a business. I have never ever said anything about prices anyone charge for their product, only that the example given was wrong, that the vendor in fact has a much bigger profit margin than the poster was trying to impose. Which is perfectly fine by me!!

It´s funny that Gibson prices, or even smaller businesses prices can be discussed in absurdum, but if it´s a vendor, then it´s sacred? Stand up for your product god damn it!!
You're on a roll. Keep it going :laugh2:
 

Crotch

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I just want to enter the online contest for guitar cred.

 

freebyrd 69

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No disrespect to the vendors selling these things, but imo the harness hype is one of the biggest snake oils of the aftermarket business. A harness is 4 pots, 2 caps and some wire.
No magic dust as of what I know of..

Sure, if the values are way off, or if you want to change 300k stock pots to 500k, that´s understandable, but some people claiming that 10% tolerance values make a huge difference?? Nah. Not to me at least.

I do agree that some caps sound, or rather work better than others, but to me it has no connection to it being PIO or ceramic, I´d probably attribute it to specs. I really do think that most people do not use all 10 notches on a tone knob, if you can get three or maybe four usable positions over a tone knobs range, that would cover most peoples needs for sure..
Here is your first problem...."harness hype is one of the biggest snake oils in the aftermarket business". Insulting.

"some people claiming that 10% tolerance makes a huge difference? Nah, not to me at least". Well if it does to others, they are wrong?

" I really do think that most people do not use all 10 notches on a tone knob, if you can get three or maybe four usable positions over a tone knobs range, that would cover most peoples needs for sure."

Where is your poll on this? I use mine.....all 10 positions, quite frequently. But because YOU don't, then neither do most, right? WRONG. I will also counter that most people who don't use the majority of the tone knob sweep aren't the one's buying the harness's.

I wasn´t referring to the vendors products, it´s more the customers reactions that to me sound like they´ve been snakeoiled (no matter if they put the idea into their own heads or the seller did).

Like "wow, after changing my stock 550 CTS pots to XXX harness with 550 CTS pots it made such a huge difference!! The guitar opened up, broke in, angels were singing, my wife turned into Pamela Andersson ala 1991, I can play like etc etc etc"

Those are the reviews that makes me a bit suspicious..

I agree that it´s a great service to sell pre soldered harnesses to people who can´t/won´t do it themselves.

However, I have a very hard time believing that Jonesy, or any other vendor, pays 59 bucks for a couple of bees, and 10 bucks each for the pots..
"I wasn´t referring to the vendors products, it´s more the customers reactions that to me sound like they´ve been snakeoiled (no matter if they put the idea into their own heads or the seller did)."

The definition of getting "snakeoiled" is getting scammed, or suckered. If a customer hears a distinguishable difference, and is happy with the price and service where he got the product that did that for him/her, then they have not been "snakeoiled".

This was exactly my point as well, but people obviously only read what they wanted to read, and/or took things out of context. What bothers me is that stock harness is crap and xxx product is heavenly. Alot of people even almost proudly state they don´t even try the stock pots before switching them out.. It´s like there´s a contest of buying the most expensive or hyped aftermarket parts, and bragging about it online to get some guitar forum cred? Ha ha.

Anyway, for the last time I will state exactly what I mean. For everyone that enjoys the products they buy, more power to them. You can buy harnesses, plastic, turds or canned air as far as I´m concerned, your money, your choice. But I´m also allowed to think it´s bull**** or hype. Not all of it, but some of it.

As for the price quotations, I didn´t even bring that up, someone else did. What´s funny is that several people accuse me of not knowing **** about what things cost, but noone will confirm, deny, or even comment the first posters price quotes.

Just to make it clear, as far as I´m concerned, a vendor, or any business, can charge prices with a 1000% profit margin on anything they sell, if they want. I don´t care, I can choose to buy or not to buy.

What led to my comment about the price was that the quoted prices are obviously wrong, and only because I know that no business can be run that way.

Since some people obviously got very offended by this, feel free to inform me how wrong I am, instead of just suggesting that I don´t know **** about anything. Public or by PM. I have no problems at all being proved wrong, and will be happy to apologize if that would be needed.

As for the 5 bucks a pot comparison, please read my post. I wasn´t comparing apples and oranges (or mojotone CTS 500 to bla bla bla whatever), what I did say was that if that vendor charged me 5 bucks a piece for them, that means HE payed less than that. That´s how you usually run a business. The analogy was that if Jonesy sells pots for 11 bucks each, he don´t pay 10 bucks each for the same pot. He definitely need a bigger margin in order to keep business afloat.

Read what I´m writing without taking things out of context. Please.
"What bothers me is that stock harness is crap and xxx product is heavenly.".

Why does that bother you? I know within 10 seconds of plugging in a given guitar if the harness is crap or not. I do try them, and if you read MY post, I have stated that about 40% of stock Gibby's are just fine. But, maybe you have a reading problem. :laugh2:

The OP has a good point. Again, to that end, I would say, why are some factory guitars just fine, and others completely useless concerning harness's? If some are so good, it can't mean they are using cheap crap to assemble them, can it? All I know is, my MSSC products have worked 100% right. Before I started dealing with Martin, I used RS guitar works...same thing, every one perfect. So...........
 

LpCustom2007

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I dont have time nor energy to continue arguing, and to be honest I dont know what the argument is about. I have only expressed my opinions and thoughts, im not telling anyone else what they should think.

I find it a little ironic though that you Freebyrd have told alot of people in many different threads to not be easily offended etc, but youre the loudest one speaking for the poor offended vendors? Imo, the right way to meet criticism of your product is to in a sensible way explain why the critique is wrong, and offer arguments for why YOU stand behind your product. Anyone can do however they want obviously but that is how I would have liked to do it.

Whateva, Im done here ;)
 

jlb32

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Well crap, now I'm out 100 bucks. I thought my stock cc 15 sounded smokin great with quite usable controls but now ... I am a slave to the what if factor. Dammit.
IMO a lot of the comments by LpCustom2007 are more related to posts like the one I've quoted than him trying to say that other harnesses might not be better for some people.

Hype and others posting about their likes and dislikes does have a impact. It happens all the time on forums like this and influences even those that are completely happy with what they have.

I learned long ago what I personally like and dislike in feel, tone and control wise. I quit chasing "better" a long time ago. It's a huge money pit that I got caught up in for many years.

Now if I'm happy I stick with it. If I'm not happy or am looking for a change then it's time to look at other options.
 

ajory72

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Back to pots and caps

I love watching Peter Green, Eric Clapton and others - when they are playing they are using the middle pickup selector and rolling volume back and forth to express the music they are playing even more

When I started trying to emulate the tone they were getting [tone=for want of a better word] I found when rolling off the volume it would dive... it took me a while to research why this was happening - leading me to this forum funnily enough.

Once I bought a soldering iron and started pulling pots I did find that the CTS pots even had different ranges, so matching them up really does make sense for example, say one volume pot reads 510 and the other 370 [it does happen] you'll find the tolerences are messed up enough to cause irritation at the most I guess, that's what I found.

So I started matching tolerences with volume pots and found that when they are very close the adjustment I make when playing are consistent.

I guess this is what we are looking for = consistency.

I probably would have easily spent 50 - 100 dollars on pots in the end, from Ebay and stewmac etc.. so to find someone who specializes in them and is matching them up etc, and providing the readings, to me is enticing. Certainly with capacitors too already soldered is just easy - specially if recommended - personally I do a lot of soldering myself these days - but for the person who buys stuff cheap they might find it hard going and end up making a mess [I know I did at first] - also caps is a subjective thing , I had the Russian caps and they were great, in the end I went for the repro bumble bees - same tone, but I admit I thought I was getting a real reproduction, not an encased 5cent cap... but that's another topic :)

Tone pots i'm not to fussed about, as I rarely touch them, but I can see that some people would want both pots on a Les Paul tone controls to be matched - makes sense to me.

Does Gibson tightly tolerate the pots they wack in?
 

tdarian

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Back to pots and caps

I love watching Peter Green, Eric Clapton and others - when they are playing they are using the middle pickup selector and rolling volume back and forth to express the music they are playing even more

When I started trying to emulate the tone they were getting [tone=for want of a better word] I found when rolling off the volume it would dive... it took me a while to research why this was happening - leading me to this forum funnily enough.

Once I bought a soldering iron and started pulling pots I did find that the CTS pots even had different ranges, so matching them up really does make sense for example, say one volume pot reads 510 and the other 370 [it does happen] you'll find the tolerences are messed up enough to cause irritation at the most I guess, that's what I found.

So I started matching tolerences with volume pots and found that when they are very close the adjustment I make when playing are consistent.

I guess this is what we are looking for = consistency.

I probably would have easily spent 50 - 100 dollars on pots in the end, from Ebay and stewmac etc.. so to find someone who specializes in them and is matching them up etc, and providing the readings, to me is enticing. Certainly with capacitors too already soldered is just easy - specially if recommended - personally I do a lot of soldering myself these days - but for the person who buys stuff cheap they might find it hard going and end up making a mess [I know I did at first] - also caps is a subjective thing , I had the Russian caps and they were great, in the end I went for the repro bumble bees - same tone, but I admit I thought I was getting a real reproduction, not an encased 5cent cap... but that's another topic :)

Tone pots i'm not to fussed about, as I rarely touch them, but I can see that some people would want both pots on a Les Paul tone controls to be matched - makes sense to me.

Does Gibson tightly tolerate the pots they wack in?[/QUOTE

It looks like we can't tolerate them.
 

jenton70

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I find the biggest advantage I get from a really good harness is when adjusting tone and volume increments. I get a nice, clear signal at 6 on the volume control (unlike most of my stock harnesses, where it gets muddy). The differences at full volume or full tone are there, but just not as pronounced. For me the value is in the control.
 

rich85

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Eh I will just make a simple point.

If you leave your pots on 10 usually and only want a harness to increase vintage accuracy, that's pretty pointless.

If you actually use your pots and they don't have a nice curve when rolling them, change them!

Pretty simple?

It is the people that don't use them anyway and change them, then get blown away by the tonez that seems to be the snake oil debate it seems
 

renderit

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Why does that bother you? I know within 10 seconds of plugging in a given guitar if the harness is crap or not. I do try them, and if you read MY post, I have stated that about 40% of stock Gibby's are just fine. But, maybe you have a reading problem. :laugh2:

The OP has a good point. Again, to that end, I would say, why are some factory guitars just fine, and others completely useless concerning harness's? If some are so good, it can't mean they are using cheap crap to assemble them, can it? All I know is, my MSSC products have worked 100% right. Before I started dealing with Martin, I used RS guitar works...same thing, every one perfect. So...........
Ok. Admit it. You just pulled that percentage outta your butt, right? I mean, like I'm 89% sure you did...
 




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