Scales - Speed/Accuracy Up & Down

  • Thread starter The General
  • Start date
  • This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links like Ebay, Amazon, and others.

The General

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
2,042
As part of my daily practice routine, I run the major scale patterns and the minor pentatonic patterns, usually 30 minutes or more. I've been discovering a problem, and just wanted to see if others have the same issue and how they corrected it (other than constant practice, which I already do). It applies to any pattern actually, not just scales, but since I play scales so much it shows up the most there.

When running a scale or pattern down (? - EADGBe) the fretboard, I play WAY slower than when I run the same scale coming up (? - eBGDAE) the board. Not only is it faster coming up (?) but it's much easier, smoother and more consistent, with fewer mistakes. I pick all the notes up and down, no hammers or pull offs either direction so that isn't influencing the speed differential.

Normally I use a metronome to keep things consistent. I've grown to hate that stupid click. But when I'm not using it, I granny down, then race car back up. It isn't a question of overall speed, as I don't care that much. I'm still slow. It's the difference between down & up that's bothering me.

Anyone else have this issue? Is it normal? Advice and horror stories much appreciated. Thanks.
 

paradice

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
919
Reaction score
1,324
I know what you mean, pretty sure it's just being more familiar with one direction

it's think it's just a case of practicing, spend time only practice going down,try identify the bits where it gets tricky and you start to tense up, then single those bits out and just repeat that one string change or whatever movement it is

no point going through the full scale patterns, you'll get twice as much practice at going down the pattern if you just focus on that instead of up and down!
:)
 

Kamen_Kaiju

smiling politely as they dream of savage things
V.I.P. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
92,580
Reaction score
292,440
Practice

Most people find traveling one direction easier than the other.

You also see it in hammer-on/pull-offs. Most find one to be easier and more consistent.

....just practice is all.

And you have to practice two-notes per string scales like the pentatonic, and practice three-note per string scales like minor/Major/harmonic minor, etc.

....different picking patterns between the two styles of scale. (That's the reason most pentatonic solos are all hammers and pulls,...it's waaaay easier than actually picking each note. )


Then you get into patterns like triplets, sextuplets, groups of 5 or 9 in your runs....

Lots to do, lots to practice

:thumb:
 

huw

V.I.P. Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
4,936
...When running a scale or pattern down (? - EADGBe) the fretboard...

...the same scale coming up (? - eBGDAE) the board...

Just to answer your hidden question, you have "up" & "down" reversed: EADGBe is "up", and eBGDAE is "down".

I know that it seems logical to regard the strings nearest to the floor as the "lowest", but the standard practice is to refer to pitch: the thick E string has a lower pitch than the thin e string, so playing across the strings E > A > D > G > B > e is going up.

:)
 

Hanover Fist

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
1,089
Reaction score
1,630
I have the opposite problem. Going from high to low is easy, but going from low to high, that's where I seem to get tripped up.
 

The General

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
2,042
Just to answer your hidden question, you have "up" & "down" reversed: EADGBe is "up", and eBGDAE is "down".

I know that it seems logical to regard the strings nearest to the floor as the "lowest", but the standard practice is to refer to pitch: the thick E string has a lower pitch than the thin e string, so playing across the strings E > A > D > G > B > e is going up.

:)

Thanks. I always get that wrong. I'll have to remember pitch.

Does the same thing apply when you work "down" (up?) the neck (ie 3rd fret to 12th fret) since that goes up in pitch as well? This is one where I get confused as well. which is pretty easy these days.

Thanks to the others for their responses too. Glad to know it's common for many folks. Paradice, I'll try your suggestion of working more up than down, can't hurt.
 

Kamen_Kaiju

smiling politely as they dream of savage things
V.I.P. Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
92,580
Reaction score
292,440
It's about pitch. When you go up the neck pitch increases=up

Down the neck or down from high strings to low is going Down.

Think like a piano: move right= up. Move left=down

It's all about the pitch of the note
 

artis_xe

Christopher
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
23,911
Reaction score
108,235
Normally I use a metronome to keep things consistent. I've grown to hate that stupid click.
plenty of YouTube BPM videos that use softer tones / taps / beats __ instead of the click

besides . when you're hitting right on time , whatever the noise is , just seems to fade away
It's the difference between down & up that's bothering me.

practice more down than up ( ? )
for each time you go up . . . go down twice . and keep telling yourself that you can do it , because it happens in the mind , before it happens in your fingers
 

05jrock

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
8,153
Reaction score
15,552
Are you comfortable in the position you are in? Sitting or standing.
I have found when sitting I find it more difficult to move down the neck, standing or changing postion of the guitar has helped me
 

Frogfur

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
Messages
20,013
Reaction score
35,966
Scales are positions. Necessary for some. Thats good too.
But they don't convey emotion. There in..lies the problem for me.

But try and learn all you can about the guitar,and explore all your possibilities.
 

Classicplayer

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
3,340
Reaction score
2,614
Scales are positions. Necessary for some. Thats good too.
But they don't convey emotion. There in..lies the problem for me.

But try and learn all you can about the guitar,and explore all your possibilities.

Great Thought!

After playing guitar for more years that I care to remember, I have found I don't resort to playing scales very much now. If you want to "create" and play a bit more "emotionally" and at the same time come up with your own style and sound, I'm a firm believer in taking your favorite chords in the style of music you like to play and "dissecting" them; learn to find the same chord at different positions up and down the fingerboard and how to connect them using scale and arpeggio notes. If any are further interested, post here and I will attempt to explain with a couple of chord examples; and you can go on using the same process to your favorite chords, triads, intervals,,etc.

Classicplayer
 

DW4LesPaul

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
1,154
Reaction score
236
Yep. Same deal. It use to be I go from nut to the 12, that is from low to high, I am faster than high to low. But not anymore. It's like others say, just practice. Also,Mal hits it on the head again by saying identify the part you have trouble with, then just repeat that over and over again. No need to waste time sliding scales for 30 minutes a day. You can get all the "practice" you need by actually playing songs or creating your own riffs. If I'm tired and need to get practice in and I am so tired I can;t think about learning something new, I'll slide a scale up and down the neck ONCE, then improvise harmonize it a little, and then play songs I already know, but am trying to get bet4er at--and then taking pieces of the song here I suck and playing that over and over instead of the entire song.

I watched a Hedrix interview once and the interviewer asked Jimi, "So, how long do you practice every day?" And Kimi says, "I never practice." And the interviewer says, "How can you play so well without practicing?" Jimi says, "I don't have time to practice. I'm composing songs 12 hours a day."

So you see you can get all the "practice" you need by playing.

As part of my daily practice routine, I run the major scale patterns and the minor pentatonic patterns, usually 30 minutes or more. I've been discovering a problem, and just wanted to see if others have the same issue and how they corrected it (other than constant practice, which I already do). It applies to any pattern actually, not just scales, but since I play scales so much it shows up the most there.

When running a scale or pattern down (? - EADGBe) the fretboard, I play WAY slower than when I run the same scale coming up (? - eBGDAE) the board. Not only is it faster coming up (?) but it's much easier, smoother and more consistent, with fewer mistakes. I pick all the notes up and down, no hammers or pull offs either direction so that isn't influencing the speed differential.

Normally I use a metronome to keep things consistent. I've grown to hate that stupid click. But when I'm not using it, I granny down, then race car back up. It isn't a question of overall speed, as I don't care that much. I'm still slow. It's the difference between down & up that's bothering me.

Anyone else have this issue? Is it normal? Advice and horror stories much appreciated. Thanks.
 

JonR

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
2,889
Reaction score
2,580
No need to waste time sliding scales for 30 minutes a day. You can get all the "practice" you need by actually playing songs or creating your own riffs.
My view too.
I watched a Hedrix interview once and the interviewer asked Jimi, "So, how long do you practice every day?" And Kimi says, "I never practice." And the interviewer says, "How can you play so well without practicing?" Jimi says, "I don't have time to practice. I'm composing songs 12 hours a day."
Exactly! Whoever this "Hedrix" guy is, he knows what he's talking about. He should go far... :D

Don't practise; just play.

There's an even better (funnier) quote from Wes Montgomery: "I don't practice. I just open the guitar case every now and then and throw in a piece of raw meat."

IMHO, anyone who practices scales for 30 minutes - if that's in one session - either needs their head examined now, or will do before long. :shock: (30 minutes in total spread throughout a day: more reasonable, but still unnecessary. Unless you're still actually learning your scales.)

If you must practise scales - and they do make good warm-up exercises, for maybe 2-3 minutes - practise them with fret hand only, and to a metronome. Not fast though. Just steady and legato. Polishing up your fret hand timing in this way will significantly improve your articulation.
And obviously practise in both directions. It's only quicker going up if you practice going up more than coming down.
And - don't just play in scale order in 8ths! You know the positions. So randomise it; make melodies out of it; change the rhythms.
 

The General

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
2,042
IMHO, anyone who practices scales for 30 minutes - if that's in one session - either needs their head examined now, or will do before long. :shock: (30 minutes in total spread throughout a day: more reasonable, but still unnecessary. Unless you're still actually learning your scales.)

If you must practise scales - and they do make good warm-up exercises, for maybe 2-3 minutes - practise them with fret hand only, and to a metronome. Not fast though. Just steady and legato. Polishing up your fret hand timing in this way will significantly improve your articulation.
And obviously practise in both directions. It's only quicker going up if you practice going up more than coming down.
And - don't just play in scale order in 8ths! You know the positions. So randomise it; make melodies out of it; change the rhythms.

Thanks Jon. I should clarify, no way can I just sit there and do simple scales for 30 minutes. I'd lose my mind. I run all the Am pentatonic, for example, as a warm up type thing. Then a major. After that, it's playing "scales" for awhile - I mix up scales, play parts on different areas of the neck, mix pentatonic and major, different rhythms, maybe play a few patterns all within the scale, throw in a minor, mix in some legato - stuff like that. Like you said, just making different melodies. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it doesn't. All part of learning. Some people might call it noodling, but I try to keep within the framework of some type of scale when I'm doing it.
 

DW4LesPaul

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
1,154
Reaction score
236
If you are conscious of the scale you are paying and the chords in the key, and you're trying to create riffs and progressions, then that's not noodling. That's practicing.

Thanks Jon. I should clarify, no way can I just sit there and do simple scales for 30 minutes. I'd lose my mind. I run all the Am pentatonic, for example, as a warm up type thing. Then a major. After that, it's playing "scales" for awhile - I mix up scales, play parts on different areas of the neck, mix pentatonic and major, different rhythms, maybe play a few patterns all within the scale, throw in a minor, mix in some legato - stuff like that. Like you said, just making different melodies. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it doesn't. All part of learning. Some people might call it noodling, but I try to keep within the framework of some type of scale when I'm doing it.
 

lespauldawg

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
805
Reaction score
196
As part of my daily practice routine, I run the major scale patterns and the minor pentatonic patterns, usually 30 minutes or more. I've been discovering a problem, and just wanted to see if others have the same issue and how they corrected it (other than constant practice, which I already do). It applies to any pattern actually, not just scales, but since I play scales so much it shows up the most there.

When running a scale or pattern down (? - EADGBe) the fretboard, I play WAY slower than when I run the same scale coming up (? - eBGDAE) the board. Not only is it faster coming up (?) but it's much easier, smoother and more consistent, with fewer mistakes. I pick all the notes up and down, no hammers or pull offs either direction so that isn't influencing the speed differential.

Normally I use a metronome to keep things consistent. I've grown to hate that stupid click. But when I'm not using it, I granny down, then race car back up. It isn't a question of overall speed, as I don't care that much. I'm still slow. It's the difference between down & up that's bothering me.

Anyone else have this issue? Is it normal? Advice and horror stories much appreciated. Thanks.

Check out this guitar instructor "Pebber Brown" I believe most guitar players fault (myself included) on the fundamentals and unfortunately perpetuate bad technique. I noticed his site on Youtube and thought his exercises/technique were interesting.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKs9mRHWXvI[/ame]
 

The General

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
1,226
Reaction score
2,042
great exercises, I'm going to add these in. thanks for posting. This guy would LOVE my playing. I am at the infantile stage for sure :laugh2:
 

DW4LesPaul

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
1,154
Reaction score
236
He was the very first dude I started with 2.5 years ago. But after a week of alternate picking, down picking, up picking, etc., 30 seconds each (get to be a huge chuck of time), I had to modify his teaching style. lol.

I still adhere to his rigor of technique, but only practice it like he does it there about 5 minutes before and after practicing, and not completely like he does it. I mean following him strictly would take two hours before you got to practice any chords or songs.

But I still try to keep all of my finger as close to the fretboard as possible, including the pinky, and try and make sure I always use all of my fingers.

I just watched that video again, and now I wan to do his practice stuff again--lol. He's funny too. And he's right about people sucking and all ther est of waht he says. He has a high rigor attitude. Start at 8:00 it's so true and funny--"You're infant level on your instruments. . . ." lol

He's a technique instructor. He makes no bones about it. So play the chromatic scale for 10 minutes each day. Um, no. "Yuo gotta go for 20-30 reps ofthe entire chromatic scale. . . ." LOL, yeah that's good if you can practice 5 hours a day.

Check out this guitar instructor "Pebber Brown" I believe most guitar players fault (myself included) on the fundamentals and unfortunately perpetuate bad technique. I noticed his site on Youtube and thought his exercises/technique were interesting.

I gotta admit, though, he plays a VERY mean chromatic scale.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKs9mRHWXvI
 

flats750

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Messages
417
Reaction score
225
I disagree with his method. While technique can be important, music is not just technique. It's the difference between listening to someone play piano or someone typing. They both require technique, but only one is musical.
 

Latest Threads



Top
')