real LP or best fake ever?

RicOkc

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Best expert on it........Gibson.

Call or Email and ask!
 

StudioFan

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A faked serial number means stolen property, dont think it's a question that the guitar is authentic, its a question of why the back of the headstock and serial number appear tampered with smart one
Yes I went back to the THREAD TITLE at the end of my last post which is : real LP or best fake ever ?


This guitar has been de-valued bud.......and not by a small amount.

What I think is that I have seen the machine that stamps the serial numbers and it is not designed for those size numbers to stamp across the top of the guitar in the serial number position.

No one is claiming a conspiracy, but the brother asked for opinions, so he got opinions....and most of them have been spot-on.

What we are claiming is that we know a little more about this than you seem to.

Carry on.....
Devalued ?
Even without a serial number it is still a nice Traditional. You know , for PLAYING MUSIC .

So you know for sure it has been tampered with ?

Don’t see how you or anyone else can de-value a guitar you have never seen or held a UV light up to !! LOL !

You mean these presses at Gibson that you can attach just about anything you want to ?
36041149-13AA-4B01-A4A0-34EB75951C58.jpeg


Gibson showed you all of the stamping equipment they own as well ?

Not the year stamp but same size and font ?

Hm ... seems to me that is the most logical explanation for this . The 7012 or w/e is lined right up in a group of FOUR (4) .

But what do I know right since you guys know everything:
 

PierM

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This is clearly aligned. Just see how all same "0" characters are aligned. Same goes for the "1". It’s the canvas that does contain the engraved font that you need to look at....not the font alone. Also, I hope you are not really comparing your picture with the OP one. It's clearly a TOTALLY different story.

 

HardCore Troubadour

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stop while you're ahead......that hole is getting very deep.
:slap:

my bad, no harm meant.
Devalued ?
Even without a serial number it is still a nice Traditional. You know , for PLAYING MUSIC .

So you know for sure it has been tampered with ?

Don’t see how you or anyone else can de-value a guitar you have never seen or held a UV light up to !! LOL !

You mean these presses at Gibson that you can attach just about anything you want to ?
View attachment 351078

Gibson showed you all of the stamping equipment they own as well ?

Not the year stamp but same size and font ?

Hm ... seems to me that is the most logical explanation for this . The 7012 or w/e is lined right up in a group of FOUR (4) .

But what do I know right since you guys know everything:
 
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2manyGuitars

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^ And hence the 'devalued' bit.
Yup. If I see that advertised on Craigslist, show up and see that serial number, I’m walking.

Now, if there’s a verifiable explanation, I might be interested but it would have to be the right price. If you’re paying the going rate for a regular Traditional, I’d just walk and go find one that hasn’t been messed with.

I can only speak for myself, but I would guess you find a lot of people who would fall on my side of the fence.
 

StudioFan

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stop while you're ahead......that hole is getting very deep.
:slap:

my bad, no harm meant.

IDGAF how deep .

I know the serial number is not done in the usual way .

All that matters is that the OP enjoys his guitar which is just as good if not better than all the rest of the LP PRO’s out there .

Here is my 2013 Traditional with the regular serial arrangement , not that it matters much .
 

Matt51

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I had no idea I had so many replies (only got email re the first one). Thank you all for your thoughts! I did contact Gibson and unfortunately they had no record of the serial number. However they also said they were relatively certain it is a real Les Paul based on all the detailed pictures I sent them (many more and higher res than I posted here). Even the standard "imperfections" of a real LP are present on my guitar. Like this spot:

IMG_063255.jpg


I've seen real Les Pauls with that off-color spot right there.

Anyway, so Gibson thinks someone sanded down the peg-head and then mis-transcribed the serial number. We assumed by accident but that's an interesting theory I read above that maybe it was done deliberately. That would make sense because I can't imagine what kind of "damage" to a Les Paul would be legitimately repaired by just sanding down the peg-head.

I contacted the seller and he said that he didn't know about the issue and that he had bought the guitar on eBay as well, and that he's not a pro guitar player but he just always wanted to own a Les Paul. I can't really say "that can't be true" because that's my exact situation too. True or not, there's nothing I can do about it now anyway.

So at this point it looks like I have a nice, real Les Paul--that I probably can't ever sell. And for those that asked, yes I paid full price for it -- about $1200 :(
 

irocdave12

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Here's what I can say for sure having a lot of experience using individual numerical steel stamps on engine blocks for years. The serial number on that guitar was absolutely done by hand with similar stamps and a hammer. The various depths into the wood is a dead giveaway. Look at the number 7 for example. Very deep stamped into wood at the top of the digit and shallow at the bottom. It's very suspicious and highly doubtful anyone at Gibson would take all the time to do that when a 2 second stamp machine is a foot away.
 

kakerlak

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My first thought was somebody veneered over a repaired headstock and hand-stamped the S/N, but I notice the "ears" are still present at the sides and I can't imagine anybody going through the trouble of making a three piece veneer, only to finish out the work to such an amateurish standard. Some more detailed pics of the headstock might help, particularly the transitions from side to back, neck to headstock, top edge, etc. Does it feel like there's a lip where the wood is higher/lower as you move your thumb/finger across the transition from back of neck to back of headstock? I'd look really hard for any evidence of a crack repair because, honestly, it's the most benign explanation and least impacting of resale value. If there's absolutely no evidence of repair, with the rest of the guitar sporting a factory finish, it really strongly hints at a stolen guitar. There's just no reason to sand the serial number all the way off an undamaged guitar. What's the thickness of the headstock at the top?
 

irocdave12

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Somebody else can probably better speak to this on its validation and usefulness in this case but I think there was a point Gibson was putting some kind of scannable RF device possibly in the neck during the build for production purposes? And possibly if that's indeed true and can be read could reveal the true serial number. Now if you'd want to do that for various reasons is another matter. Might be best to know what you know at this point and let it rest
 

Matt51

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Somebody else can probably better speak to this on its validation and usefulness in this case but I think there was a point Gibson was putting some kind of scannable RF device possibly in the neck during the build for production purposes? And possibly if that's indeed true and can be read could reveal the true serial number. Now if you'd want to do that for various reasons is another matter. Might be best to know what you know at this point and let it rest
Well if it is stolen I'd rather just give it back to its rightful owner. It's basically worthless right now so it's no further loss to me just to give it back. Then I can buy one that will truly be mine.

BTW I discovered something interesting today: The numbers 197 are written in pencil in the electronics cavity.

IMG_058822_enhanced.jpg

...enhanced with photoshop

IMG_058822_orig.jpg

...original picture

That would suggest that the -197- in the serial number is probably correct. So now we know that the true serial number is 11970_ _ _ _. I emailed Gibson again pointing this out and asking if anything else can be done to identify it. I'm waiting on their reply.
 
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StudioFan

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I would bet the whole serial is correct .

Use a UV light on the guitar and you can instantly tell if there has been any refinishing done .

They sell them as pet urine detector lights at Wally’s.

Also your guitar is not worthless and I would consider $1200 to be a great price .

Edit : the 6th digit can only be a 0 or a 1 (batch number)
 
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irocdave12

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Well if it is stolen I'd rather just give it back to its rightful owner. It's basically worthless right now so it's no further loss to me just to give it back. Then I can buy one that will truly be mine.

BTW I discovered something interesting today: The numbers 197 are written in pencil in the electronics cavity.

View attachment 353605
...enhanced with photoshop

View attachment 353606
...original picture

That would suggest that the -197- in the serial number is probably correct. So now we know that the true serial number is 11970_ _ _ _. I emailed Gibson again pointing this out and asking if anything else can be done to identify it. I'm waiting on their reply.
Well that's damn decent of you if you could ever find the real owner if you ever confirm its stolen etc. I can totally appreciate that you can't fully bond with it yourself at this point. Good luck either way
 

irocdave12

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I would bet the whole serial is correct .

Use a UV light on the guitar and you can instantly tell if there has been any refinishing done .

They sell them as pet urine detector lights at Wally’s.

Also your guitar is not worthless and I would consider $1200 to be a great price .

Edit : the 6th digit can only be a 0 or a 1 (batch number)
I think the OP already stated Gibson has no record of the serial number so I'd take that bet
 

Frozen Rat

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The problem with finding the right owner (if your theory is correct, which it probably is) is that I don't think there's a linked up national database on stolen goods. So you can't just plug in the info somewhere and have it searched across multiple counties and states. Plus, you've already had it four years so that trail is cold as a stone and the original report (assuming it was reported) is certainly buried deep and forgotten.

Since the guy who sold it to you doesn't know its origins and you don't either then that trail is mostly wiped out unless you get real lucky or can somehow get the guy who sold it to you to tell you who he bought it from. But he probably doesn't know, and Ebay doesn't keep detailed records that long.

I know how you feel though, I don't think I'd ever play that guitar again if it were me if I felt it was stolen goods. I'd never feel like it was mine. I would have to get rid of it. But how? You don't want to sell it
because you'd be selling stolen goods. I don't think anyone would ever show up to call you out on it, but you'd know. I think this is actually a really sticky moral dilemma, because even if you donate it to someone you would be passing along bad karma to an unsuspecting soul or organization.

Someone sold me something that was stolen once and when I discovered that fact it really, I mean REALLY, bothered me. Fortunately I was able to track down the police in the right jurisdiction and got it back to the rightful owner. But I never thought of what I'd do if I failed at that.

I wonder if Gibson would take it back? If they would that seems like a path forward that wouldn't involve sketchy ethos.
 

Redfish

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If it was stolen there's not a thing the OP can do about it. The trail is too muddied and if Gibson can't help that's that. I don't understand the "I would never play it" comment. The OP bought the guitar in good faith and he has tried to find the facts but it is what it is. He has done nothing wrong and the problem can't be rectified so play it and enjoy it.
The only person that should feel guilty is the person that stole it (if that is the case) and anyone who sold it knowing it was stolen.
 
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