Question about ES355 multi-ply binding.

[Blackdog]

Hello there.
I am planning an 59-ish ES355 as my next build, and as you know these had the LP Custom style cosmetics: ebony board, pearl block, multi-ply binding on the headstock and body.

The only reference I have is a Black Beauty 54 Historic I own, and I don't know how representative it actually is in terms of bindings.

My questions about the vintage ES355s:
- How many "plies" did the binding have on the top, the back, the headstock and the scratchplate ?
- How was the binding channel cut: Just one full depth (1/4"?) channel for all the plies OR two steps with only the outer (white) ply running full depth and a shallower channel for the thinner B/W/B/W binding ?

Any info you can provide me on this will be much appreciated.

 

[gator payne]

Here is what I know but it is a 1960 spec I assue it in same or near same as a 1959.
Multi bound celuloid tortoise pickguard with .06" bright white binding .04" black-.04" white-.02" black-.04" white purfling,

Multiple bound top with creamy white binding and .02" bwbwbw (creamy white binding - .02" black, white, black, white, black, white purfling) (6 ply purfling used here!

Multi bound peghead with creamy white binding and .02 bwbw (creamy white binding - .02"black, white, black, white purfling)

Multi bound back with ceamy white binding and .02 bw (creamy white binding - .02" black, white purfling)

Single bound ebony fingerboard bright white,

Unbound F-holes.

The white used on the pickguard and fretbord is very stark white everything else is creamy white

I have photos at home I could post if you like

On the most of the laminations the binding is .06" (1.5mm) standard binding thickness, 1/4" tall and each of the purfling veneers are .02" thick. The exception to this is that the lamination thickness pattern on the pick guard is strangly different for some reason. my guess is Gibson farmed out the pickguards.

Also since the white purfing on the body and peghead is somewhat creamy colored I an guessing they used either Holly or clear maple for the white veneers and black fiberboard for the black veneers in the perfling laminations.

here the photos

url=http://www.dropshots.com/ZIGGY1555#date/2011-06-23/15:01:03]

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[gator payne]

I see that you are online Blackdog just incase you did not know that I added the photos I will bump this up

 

[Blackdog]

Wow, thanks !
Many thanks for this, Gator.
Was the body binding creamy from the beginning or is it white under the yellowed clearcoats ?

I do not mean to make an absolute replica, but would still like to get right as many details as possible, within reason. I'll build this one for my own personal use.

Thanks again.

 

[gator payne]

I am pretty sure it was cream from the get go because everyone I have ever seen has been the same shade of cream. but if you are not doing an exact relplica, It is not that big of an issue. now this would of course be the first time if I am wrong

 

[Blackdog]

I am pretty sure it was cream from the get go because everyone I have ever seen has been the same shade of cream. but if you are not doing an exact relplica, It is not that big of an issue. now this would of course be the first time if I am wrong

Thanks again, BTW the color of that 355 in the pictures is just amazing !

Another couple of newbie questions if I may... See, my recent ES335 build was my very first experience with plastic binding...

How is the binding supposed to be done in this case, exactly. Let's say that I go with stewmac plastic:
- Are the two-step channels cut before-hand, or just the "purfling-depth" inner channel and the outer only after the multi-ply purfling is in place ?
- Is the purfling supposed to be applied one layer at a time or can I laminate it first, say, in pairs, or maybe the whole thing ? (this is of course in the cases where no mitering is required)

Thanks for the patience !!

 

[gator payne]

If I am using stepped ledge B/W purfling (no matter how many veneers of purfling) I want to do binding and purfling at the same time. This allows me to insure that I have the binding and purfling drawn in tight to each other and the inside edge of the channel. It does not matter if it is a stepped ledge or full height ledge. Glue them at the same time.

The only thing I do an individual layer is with shell purfling I always put shell in last as it has to be broke in place. But even then when I glue up I use a Teflon strip to act as the shell until the binding and surrounding purfling has dried in place then remove the Teflon and install the shell.

I know of no reason to ever do one layer at a time. That just opens up too many chances for things to go wrong.

 

[Blackdog]

Very much appreciated, Gator.

 

[Blackdog]

If I am using stepped ledge B/W purfling (no matter how many veneers of purfling) I want to do binding and purfling at the same time. This allows me to insure that I have the binding and purfling drawn in tight to each other and the inside edge of the channel. It does not matter if it is a stepped ledge or full height ledge. Glue them at the same time.

Hi Gator,
I hope you don't mind me opening this issue again, but when you do the stepped ledge purfling, what are the depths you use ??
I would assume that the binding is at 1/4" or thereabouts, but what about the B/W purfling ?
The top plate is just above 3/16" thick, I'm guessing that a fair bit less than that, right ?
I'm asking because I am getting ready for this operation right now. Thanks for the support.

 

[gator payne]

Hi Gator,
I hope you don't mind me opening this issue again, but when you do the stepped ledge purfling, what are the depths you use ??
I would assume that the binding is at 1/4" or thereabouts, but what about the B/W purfling ?
The top plate is just above 3/16" thick, I'm guessing that a fair bit less than that, right ?
I'm asking because I am getting ready for this operation right now. Thanks for the support.

The guiding force is dependent on the purfling you have. There are basicly three different heights of purfling (for the most part).063, .125, and .25" You never want the channel as deep or deeper than the purfling because you want to be able to scrape the purfling flush to your finished surface. So give your self. .005"-.010" of material to srape or plane flush with the top. Use a well turned hook on a cabinet scraper or a well sharpend finger plane. This will make all the difference in the world on how sharp the line definition is on the purfling. Sanding tends to blur the line definition on purfling due to the heat and mecanical force of the sanding motion. Scraping or planing is the way to go. Don't try to take too much at a time and keep your blade or scraper sharp.

 

[Blackdog]

The guiding force is dependent on the purfling you have. There are basicly three different heights of purfling (for the most part).063, .125, and .25" You never want the channel as deep or deeper than the purfling because you want to be able to scrape the purfling flush to your finished surface. So give your self. .005"-.010" of material to srape or plane flush with the top. Use a well turned hook on a cabinet scraper or a well sharpend finger plane. This will make all the difference in the world on how sharp the line definition is on the purfling. Sanding tends to blur the line definition on purfling due to the heat and mecanical force of the sanding motion. Scraping or planing is the way to go. Don't try to take too much at a time and keep your blade or scraper sharp.

Many thanks for your prompt and detailed reply.
This part I can understand reasonably well. My question was driven by the fact that I will be making the B/W multi-ply purfling out of 1/4" material, just as deep as the binding.
In this case I need to choose my purfling channel depth as a function of how much of the top plate thickness I want to leave in place at the top edges.

I can understand that going full depth for a 1/4" purfling would make little difference on a solidbody scenario, but for a (semi)hollow guitar I would be seriously weakening the top to rims/kerfed linings joint, wouldn't I ??

Sorry for the verbose question, kinda difficult to explain with just words. I may try to put a little sketch together if necessary...

 

[jonas 335]

It seems to me the inner wbwbwb binding would have to be something like 1/16" - 1/8" deep or there would be strength problems... shaped like an upside down L...

 

[Ken McKay]

Luis, go about half the plate thickness or about 0.09 inches deep for your purfling channel. You can easily sand your purfling down by rolling it into a ring and sand it flat on the bottom by rubbing it on a sandpaper on a flat board.

I understand your concern regarding going through your plate with the purfling. this is to be avoided at all costs. I would just set the router bit to rout through the face veneer plus the first core layer. That will be exactly half the plate.

Your binding channel will be the usual 0.25 deep with a thickness of 0.08 ideally.

 

[Blackdog]

Luis, go about half the plate thickness or about 0.09 inches deep for your purfling channel. You can easily sand your purfling down by rolling it into a ring and sand it flat on the bottom by rubbing it on a sandpaper on a flat board.

I understand your concern regarding going through your plate with the purfling. this is to be avoided at all costs. I would just set the router bit to rout through the face veneer plus the first core layer. That will be exactly half the plate.

Your binding channel will be the usual 0.25 deep with a thickness of 0.08 ideally.

Thanks Ken, that was exactly my concern. Half of the plate thickness maximum depth makes perfect sense.

So to summarize:
For the top I will use 0.09" W binding (0.25"), BWBWBW purfling 0.02" each, about 0.08-0.09" deep.
For the back 0.09" W binding (0.25"), BW purfling 0.02" each, about 0.08-0.09" deep (maybe for this case I can get away with all the layers at 0.25" depth ?).

For the headstock and pickguard I will use 0.06" W plus 0.02"each BWBW, all shaved down to the proper depth. This should do the trick.

I will start laminating the 0.02" B&W strips together and see how the resulting material feels like, maybe I'll try to rig something up with the dremel to cut them lenghtwise. We'll see.

 

[Ken McKay]

Sounds good, That will look great!

 

[Blackdog]

I got the body binding successfully done. Thanks Gator and Ken for the help.

I did the back as a normal binding (all 0.25" deep), and the top as binding (0.25" deep) and purfling (0.08" deep).

 

[Ken McKay]

That looks better than excellent!
And the top is even more excellenter!!!

 

[Ken McKay]

L,

Do you have the cherry finishing schedule?

 

[jonas 335]

Having just finished my first binding (on a LP standard) I appreciate even more what a great job you've done on this 355. I hope it will be red - all 355s must be red...beautiful...

 

[Blackdog]

Thanks Ken. I was a bit worried, this is just my third body binding ever. But it ended up pretty well.

L,

Do you have the cherry finishing schedule?

No, not completely at least.

I know that the 59ers were stained cherry directly on the maple. But I don't know if I will have to shoot a candy cherry on top of that or not.

This will be my first finishing with proper spraying equipment (I'm in the process of procuring this right now), and I would like to keep it as simple as possible, but we'll do what's needed in the end...

BTW, Ken, is this the first ES-355 built from your kits ? And if not, do you have finished pictures of the other one(s) to share ?